Episode 109 - The 27 Subtypes of the Enneagram - The Head Center

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[Music] [Laughter] first the groundskin is memory is historically inaccurate [Music] forever [Music] hi friends my name is hilary mcbride welcome to the liturgist podcast today is episode 2 of the enneagram subtypes episode and we're going to be diving into the head type before i hand you over to the conversation with science mike and annie diamond i want to situate you in their conversation by giving you a little bit of information off the top about what we're going to be talking about today in this episode if you haven't been with us for the first episode where we talked about the gut type you could always pause this now and head back and listen to that one or you could keep listening to this one and then check it out after a reminder that we've got one more coming at you in this series after this called the heart type and the reason that we do that is because the enneagram although most of us are familiar with the nine numbers there's actually three parts within each number which makes for a lot of content there's actually 27 subtypes so to divide them all up and give them as much time as they deserve we're making three episodes for each of the instinctual centers of the enneagram the head heart and gut centers and then diving into the numbers within that center and then the subtypes within each of those numbers yes yeah and it's okay if you have to rewind and listen to me say that all again or if you ignore it completely if you were with us the last episode you heard annie and mike talk about the body or the gut types which are numbers eight nine and one today we're going to be covering the head types and those are numbers five six and seven and then on the final episode we'll be covering the heart types which are numbers two three and four within each number we've got a subtype and these have evolved based on what we've needed as survival strategies to help us get through interpersonal and environmental contexts that perhaps have met our needs or not these subtypes are self-preservation which tends to be about responding to perceived threats as well as needs the social subtype about creating social structures within communities or social contexts and then lastly one to one which is tends to be focused on primary relationships or coupling if you are new to the enneagram and this is your first shot at listening to what the head types are about these are three numbers three categories of ways that people interact with the world that are thinking based and head types tend to lead with ideas they gather information figure things out and make decisions based on rationality and they tend to do this before acting the focus is on creating certainty and safety and finding lots of options about what can happen next they're often also known as the intellectual center okay folks buckle up for another great conversation between annie diamond who is in scotland and mr science mike who is in los angeles enjoy patterns it's the first brush stroke of a [Music] self-portrait [Music] i think as an indian gram seven at times i've been misunderstood in the fact that seven sometimes get the reputation for being flighty or unreliable chaotic disorganized and you know bail quick just looking for the good time and i've just never found that to be true in my life even people who are close to me have affirmed that i've always been good in school i you know go to work every day get my work done and in fact my kind of fast-moving brain has always been helpful for me at work strategic and can problem solve and sometimes the assumption that you know i just like to party and that's kind of what i'm good for has preceded me but that's never been the case however when duty calls i do know how to party [Music] hey y'all i'm an enneagram 7 and i think that the most misunderstood thing about my type is our ability to go to hard and deep emotional spaces i work as a hospital chaplain in a very intense medical icu and i'm also clergy and a mainline denomination when people find out that i'm a seven i can see the confusion as to why i would willingly place myself in a role where grief and loss are familiar and oftentimes everyday realities what i find helpful where i found my own health is to remind myself that any emotion i feel good bad joyful sorrow it isn't permanent it doesn't last forever and as a seven my deep fear is to be trapped but that doesn't mean that i have an inability to go to the deep and dark places in fact i think another thing people don't understand is that when we do show up to hard places and we do do the hard work of knowing ourself and trusting our own emotions we can show up with deep empathy and compassion in ways that are uniquely genuine but don't cheapen the reality of pain we can do hard things and if we really work at it we can do hard things well we just have to trust that we won't be trapped and that at our very core we are the most free when we are present to what we're feeling even to the hard and icky stuff [Music] so my supervisor from the hospital chaplaincy that i've just finished said that i was an affable sincere and good-natured fellow whose jovial personality at times masks the depth of thoughtfulness and soul that is underneath and it was such a relief to receive that to know that they saw that in me because i feel like that gets missed a lot for me and i guess sevens in general of we feel we're big in crowds and we're in with lots of different people and we can make people feel genuinely really welcome and it can seem from the outside that we have what we need in terms of personal relationships but uh my experience at least is that i feel alone in crowds and what i'm hoping for is to be seen and to be known and to be loved and to be wanted yeah so there's a loneliness underneath our gregariousness and also a kind of never being satisfied with what we have so you know maybe we set up our own [Music] disappointment hi i'm an enneagram seven and one of the ways that my type makes me feel misunderstood is that people assume i'm always okay [Music] some of this is probably self-inflicted because i come across as jovial and happy-go-lucky and i don't talk about my problems or fears or insecurities [Music] but i sometimes struggle to keep up that everything is okay vibe that i have going in some of my past relationships the dynamic has been such that i've been there for the other person or other people when they were struggling but the relationship was never reciprocal and i was often left to deal with my problems alone because it was assumed that they weren't a big deal and that i would probably rather work through them by myself [Music] and that was probably true sometimes but there were times that i could think of where i really needed someone and i didn't have anywhere to turn [Music] so [Music] so [Music] okay so type sevens i think we could we could subtitle this one not every seven is a peter pan but some are [Laughter] oh and i think that's really important i have yeah i have a family member a couple of them actually who are sevens and it's just like it makes it hard to identify with that type or really know how the types that work when these sorts of tropes are alive and working because the sevens fear insecurity the kind of insecurity that arises from anticipating being trapped in pain so gluttony energizes the pursuit of freedom different ways of being free and keeping options open so the the question for these types and for the subtypes is where do they find security and indulgence and how do they pursue freedom some of those look like peter pan's and some don't right so the self-press type generally does not look like a peter pan type these are if the passion is gluttony their passion is for the family network and the material world these types are really physical people who attune to the material world and how it affects pain and pleasure so if you think about this think about if your desire is to feel free think about how like financial insecurity would cripple your ability to feel free it really does and so these people are much more grounded than we think when we think of sevens but they're attuning to freedom as expressed in their material environment and so they devote a ton of energy to making sure that they have material security both with like money and home but also their body think about aging aging is a real fear of many sevens but really self-pressed evidence can really scare them because that sense of losing freedom in your body is frightening yeah don't talk about death that's really scary so they they're often people who create alliances and routines i mean health routines that maximize their anticipated like freedom and pleasure and there are people who can more easily commit because a sort of familial network can really in some ways increase your options because think about the fact that like relationships and people are sort of how we talk about we even get work these days it's like you know somebody and so these sevens can be really kind of practical in their relationship making and they can think sort of materially how relationships can affect their ability to be free in the future so very physical very practical in some ways that makes them look almost like a six sometimes and almost like an eight sometimes which is of course the types that are on either side yeah so that's the that's the self press seven but yeah much more grounded and less like flat flitting around in the air saying like singing i don't want to grow up they're like actually doing the work they're like working for this like freedom that they'll have later in life whereas like the sexual seven i still don't want to call them peter pan's because they don't all look like that um but they are the type that kind of get caught up in in freedom and they have a passion for sort of suggestibility they pursue freedom and indulge in dreams and fantasy and that's how they avoid being trapped in pain they follow their whims and passionately move towards things that interest them yeah dream they're dreamers they get fascinated really easily i actually think i don't know if this is the perfect image but if you've seen up when the little dog the dog that's like running around what's the name doug i think and hi he says yeah and he's like squirrel and then he like he's looking at something and then he's distracted by the squirrel like sometimes i think of sevens that way except they'll more readily like follow a path for a little while but there can be that really intense shift of focus which is why a lot of people are like oh you were all in here and then all of a sudden you left and you're somewhere else this is the type of seven this is the subtype of seven that often people are talking about when they talk about sevens generally yeah because they're they can be very light-hearted they don't they kind of hate tedium they're a little bit hypnotizable yeah and then lastly the the social seven um this is interesting they find security in their idea of community so community ideals which means that they interestingly and counterintuitively have a passion for like sacrifice they kind of question the idea of freedom you know these material self-pressed sevens are working for freedom so that they can maintain it and keep it the sexual sevens are kind of getting caught up in freedom and sort of riding the wave of freedom whereas these social types because they're aware of the group and how probably also how freedom functions within a network of belonging they avoid being trapped in pain by moving towards their ideal world and self so they try to like instead of collecting things materially they try to get by on less so i actually know a lot of social sevens who live in tiny houses like like multiple who live in tiny houses it's almost as if like if we all sacrificed we could live conflict free like we could all be happy they kind of want to be pure have an honored place in the group through their service and sacrifice but also they they can sometimes look like a one because they judge their own self-interest they're still sevens who have like desires and want to be free but they also are committed to the community and freedom sort of like a social visionary almost and asking questions of like how do we be free so they live almost in this tension of like my own freedom and the freedom of everyone else yeah but they and they can still have a joyful appearance but sometimes they can be a bit more like anguished of a type because they're really in a sense contemplating the dynamics of freedom yeah but really like indulging in their ideals and that's where they get stuck so it's important to say i think with the sevens that it's not staying in one place that's the virtue here because often that's what we're like oh sevens just need to like stay in one place and we can see that that actually functions that could function negatively even for a self press seven or it can keep us from encountering the actual issues at the heart of the gluttony why is it like what is the fear and why if staying in one place serves encountering the the fear of being trapped in pain then great but we don't need to just encourage them behaviorally to just stay even though there might be good reasons to in certain situations i love so much that like the seven such a good example of how instinctual sinners let us escape the enneagram as caricature right yeah to like dismantle the peter pan trap the way that like erases people's life experiences in a race is their kind of unique way of living and being the layers added by the instinctual sinners just completely obliterate that i love it so much yeah we have to be able to integrate like the good that develops in these centers as well i think that's really important to note like even though the self-preservation instinct and getting really caught there or the sexual instinct and getting really caught there the social instinct and really getting caught there could block us from doing some work it's also a place where we have incredible intuitive ability so it's just natural for you to create a really physically and materially hospitable and warm environment which is not just easy for everyone to do because you've spent so much time there you've also gained a lot of skills there and so it's about feeling a sense of agency with regard to those things instead of feeling like it's what you have to do to survive and i think that's really important here and it's really important as we talk to other people about their types right like really supporting the gift like if we're gonna talk about the sevens or and even the sexual sevens that peter pan like it's beautiful there's something really beautiful about that way of being in the world sometimes it blocks you from certain parts of reality but it also opens you up to certain parts of reality that other people are missing right and it's about having the space and agency to choose when it's when it's the moment in a sense to when it's the moment and how you want to engage with those the types of energy um and where you want to attend yeah anyway i think agreed like the seven is a really um interesting case study and how we in some ways misuse the archetypes the nine archetypes how nice [Music] i'm serious let's make a list and just begin what about danger [Music] let's climb this mountain before we cross that bridge cause i'm rich [Music] [Music] how wonderful to see a smile on your face [Music] it costs farewell tears [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] i'm [Music] next let me tell you another secret of [Music] it feels like sinking when i'm standing in one place so i look to the future [Music] but i wanna be truly be here [Music] to watch the ones that i love [Music] seasons too [Music] tomorrow will be [Music] beautiful [Music] is [Music] [Applause] [Applause] [Music] it's normal at so many different points in our life to feel like something is getting in the way of being present or happy something stopping us from achieving the goals that we have for ourselves or feeling connected to the people that we love better help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist to help you work on all those things you can connect with someone in a safe and private online environment for that reason it's so convenient you don't even have to leave the house and you can start working with someone in under 24 hours when working with someone through better help you can send a message to your counselor at any time and get a timely and thoughtful response plus you can schedule weekly video and phone sessions better help has licensed professional counselors who are specialized in treating things like depression anxiety navigating family conflicts and so much more they're committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they make it easy and free to change counselors if needed anything you share with your counselor is confidential so many people have been using better help that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states start living a happier life today as a listener you get 10 off your first month by visiting betterhelp.com liturgists join over 1 million people taking care of their mental health again it's better help h-e-l-p-com slash liturgists [Music] i think one of the most discouraging things about being a six on the enneagram is the perception that others have of me as being a very negative person and i'm actually not a naturally negative person the misunderstanding comes from the fact that i immediately see all the issues and the problems and the barriers uh when it comes to a situation or a plan or a proposal so for example somebody brings an idea to the table i'm immediately going to see all the things are going to shut that idea down and i'm going to voice them then i'm going to ask a bunch of questions as follow-up and what it's going to feel like to the other person is kind of a negative attack and then i'm trying to shut things down and so i know this about myself and i know this about how it impacts other person so i do try to temper it but it doesn't stop me from seeing things that way in reality what i'm trying to do is something positive i'm the one that's going to come alongside you and see all the problems and then help you remove them so that you can actually move forward with the idea that you want to roll out the thing is is that it's hard to get to that point because so many of the brainstormers when they come in contact with a six like me immediately just cast us off to the side as negative and they don't want to interact with us because they don't want to see their idea killed when in reality we're actually the very number that can help make that idea [Music] happen hi i am an enneagram six and there's something about the word fear that uh makes me feel misunderstood like i'm not a fearful person i would never describe myself that way i'm actually a really like bold person but it's it's anxiety is the word i'm i'm always thinking about possible outcomes and trying to plan for things and living in my head and second guessing myself um but people perceiving me as fearful makes me feel like people think i'm like weak or you know really just like living world is really afraid life when i'm actually a really confident and bold person i just have a lot of anxiety [Music] underneath i'm a six and the times i'm the most that i feel the most misunderstood uh is when i am in conflict with another person uh often people view my handling of the situation as moving way too slowly um so people who are onlookers and may not be directly involved in the conflicts but it but feel affected anyway um see me as ignoring the situation um pretending that it'll go away because i haven't made a move i haven't tried to resolve something um but what they don't know is that i can't stop thinking about the conflicts i dream about it i obsess over it because i'm going through all of the different conflict resolution scenarios and wondering which way the conversation could go um but that's hard for me to verbalize and instead of having one conflict then i end up having maybe a second or a third because people want me to move faster than i know how um i'm just taking my time i'm not trying to be mean i'm trying to be careful i'm an enneagram six and i think sixes are deeply misunderstood when it comes to worry and fear all of the the instagram enneagram accounts post just about worry with sixes and that is a big thing but i think at least for me at the heart of my worry and this deep conflictedness within me and this back and forth of i can't decide and i don't know what to do it all boils down for me to self-doubt that if i can't trust myself to even find who is trustworthy how do i trust anyone or anything at all [Music] so the six shall we move to the sixth your favorite oh yeah you your lover is a six my lover is a six and and my delight in her makes this my my very favorite uh of the instagram times um yeah some of my best buds in the world are sixes and ever you know i i get disappointed that everyone when they think of a six the primary orientation is this anxiety this fear response and it erases the ways that sixers provide a really valuable grounding for people in relationship and groups relationship precisely because of some of their wariness yes sixes are the kinds of people that keep sevens from jumping off of cliffs right like it's a really really really healthy and important part of relationship unless they're sexual six in which case they might uh try and jump off before the four of the seven no but but seriously i think you're right like the security for the six is hard won and so because of that they're really attuned this is another one of those great gifts right they're really attuned to matters of security and so they're really good at providing it because they know what it's like to not feel it and that's yeah that's really cool so yeah these are these are types that fear an insecurity that would arise from and it arises from anticipating like a lack of guidance or support and this fear anxiety energizes the pursuit of security and they do that by finding ways to protect themselves or to be protected in a way we could just talk about each of these sometimes as a different kind of fear response but for the self-presex they if this passion is fear they develop a passion for warmth they go to allies and friends to find guidance and support and they respond to their own fear in a sense by welcoming it they know they're afraid and they know they need help in fact sometimes they're anxious that they are anxious this is the phobics what we've come to know is the phobic stance they create warm networks of friends and family they also love food and comfort that can that can feel supportive they're pretty self-doubting but they have people generally around them who they feel secure with um they're this this sometimes sometimes called the family loyalist and and that stands in sharp contrast to the sexual sex which we've come to call the counterphobic sex usually and sometimes yeah so they have their passion is for strength and beauty and and those as a way of confronting fear and even warding off potential dangers before they can become fears so this fear the fear that they have drives a need to be intimidating so keep in mind that whether or not they're aware of their fear it's the fear that this that makes them feel like they have to become intimidating and so that could be by physical strength that could be by physical beauty it could be a combination they can be aggressive or threatening so that they can't be overtaken by what they fear and but often they're just not aware that they're afraid i have had a good number of sexual sex friends and they some of them just didn't know they were afraid or had anxiety until they really did a lot of work because actually they kind of look like eight sometimes like they're just sort of like i'm the protector i'm the strong one i actually think of like sometimes i think of soldiers well sometimes it's called the warrior and sometimes i think of soldiers for this type because it wouldn't be rational if you're going off to war to not be afraid unless you just don't fear death at all like of course you're afraid but you also have to show up and do it and sort of like ignore the fear so that you can be there and fight and so that's sort of what i think about for these types and it's people soldier in different ways right so there's also like um the beauty element of this like um you can become kind of an intimidating person to look at so that you aren't able to be intimidations can't touch you yeah so that's what this type is they're they're more of a confrontational type and the last one is the social sex and they're somewhere in the middle they're kind of a mixture of innophobic and counterphobic they find guidance and support through kind of ideological postures they can become social guardians who have a passion for duty so they make intellectual alliances and they really care about sort of aligning themselves with authority figures they do kind of want clarity about who's in and who's out and they can struggle with gray areas because that gray areas can be a kind of insecurity so understanding really helps them to allay the anxiety that comes from uncertainty and they yeah they're a social subtype right so groups they're focused on groups and they commit to groups or systems or authorities that can kind of authorize their behaviors and thoughts and once again we have to remember that because each of these each of these subtypes within the type six is afraid of being without guidance or support they're either taking a stance where they just collect guidance and support and are overt about their fears or their thinking through and deciding on what kind of support they want kind of group we'll give them or kind of alignment with a group will give them the support that they want or they're kind of forgetting that they even need they're not they're saying no i don't need guidance and support i'm fine i'm not afraid but that i'm fine is coming or i'm i'm strong is coming out of this real fear that they won't have guidance and support so they're trying to get ahead of the threat so yeah that's the six and i think the six is actually the one for many of us that really because they look so different for many of us the six has catalyzed our interest in the subtypes and our awareness that wow these are these can look so different and the passion of fear anxiety can can manifest in so many different ways and that's true across the board but the six is really the one that kind of called that out is it also true and this is not me being a host asking a question i know the answer to this is genuine curiosity if sixes have a you know like everybody else a kind of primary instinctual center and a secondary and one falls from view as they move in between those instinctual centers can that result in a more dynamic display of personality oh yeah absolutely so yeah so that that's really helpful thanks for saying that because i just think like again we're just so i think 27 subtypes are really helpful more helpful than the nine types but actually it would be interesting and maybe just too much people can do this work on their own but you could really do a walkthrough of each of the different ways of being stacked right so if you're self-pressed but have the social stacked underneath or if you're self-present have the sexual stacked underneath you'll look more this way but also we're just dynamic people and we have access to each of these and because this is nurtured because the instincts are nurtured hopefully with contact to these different instinctual areas over time you could become an openness you could become a more dynamic person and i mean dynamic literally like mobile if we get caught in one posture um we can really actually i loved andy crouch wrote a book called culture making and i've never forgotten one image from it which was the difference between gestures and postures and he talked about if you gesture in the same direction over and over it sort of becomes a posture and i and i suppose it's the same with like ruts neural pathways that sort of become ruts in our brain there's a possibility for dynamism in so many directions and in fact this is why i do the work that i do with the enneagram clients that i have is i believe in that like i believe that we have more agency than we practice out of and i don't think we're stuck in any of these these are sort of again they're they are if even more specific caricatures they are still that and there is freedom to do something different and if there wasn't this would be the most boring job of all time because i would just be naming things and never surprised by things but actually the goal of using this is that we can be surprised by how dynamic we actually are and sometimes we've really received gifts in our lives that have helped us to grow in ways we didn't even know so yeah absolutely likely no one will look exactly like what i've said and hopefully they won't yeah thank you [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] i had the most vivid dream my feet but i could only look down my mind was heavy with worst case scenarios emergency exits and the distance oh god [Music] [Music] [Music] somewhere [Music] maybe i'm stronger [Music] then i realized [Music] i was made to become a sanctuary [Music] these invisible walls just might keep us [Music] is always [Applause] [Music] somehow don't be afraid [Music] i am a five and people usually assume that i'm not an emotional person the truth is that i am extremely sensitive and feel things very deeply i'm intuitive empathetic and highly perceptive but that also means that my brain is constantly flooded with a lot of information i learned early on to filter it through logic and objectivity as a way to keep from being overwhelmed but that doesn't mean that i don't have emotional responses i feel and i care i just express it differently sometimes i'm gonna answer this question the opposite way i don't know what that says about my type i guess or maybe just who i am you asked how maybe our enneagram made people not understand us but i am a five and i have found that coming to understand the enneagram and some of the description of how i think or react has helped me explain to other people why i'm thinking the way that i am or why i'm reacting the way that i am and i'm really thankful for that i'm not always very good at finding my own words so i appreciate when other people have done the work to put the words together for me um so i've been very thankful for that um i don't think that it's ever had people misunderstand me but it has definitely been helpful as i've interacted with others to explain my brain i suppose i don't know if that's helpful [Music] i am so sick of the memification of the enneagram i am so tired of going on instagram and seeing my type being condensed into something that doesn't look like me at all i'm a five and all of those infographics and memes and tv quotes seem to think that that means that i hate people and that's just not true i love people i love learning about people my curiosity extends to people instagram thinks that i'm anti-social that i'm a curmudgeon that i just want to be alone and that couldn't be farther from the truth i love the enneagram and i'm really grateful for it as a tool i get really nervous though with the way that we continue to condense it down to these sound bites that are easy to share on social media because we miss the nuance of this this really great tool that helps us move in growth and stress it makes me think that we've only got about a year left of this being valuable and then we're going to have to find some other way to interpret archetypes [Music] my name is steve van cleek and i am an enneagram type 5 with the six wing and the thing that i believe many people misunderstand about the type five including a lot of type fives is that the type five is a very sensitive type because we're so high-headed and logic-oriented it can come off we can come up very cold we can come off as abrasive sometimes we do have the line to eight who are the masters of abrasion and a lot of types looking on don't understand that the reason we come off that way and the reason that we we employ those mechanisms is because we are soft we're sensitive people and at some point in our childhood reality was more than we could bear and so we ran into our heads to get away from that pain and i think it's a really critical thing for type fives to understand and for the people around type fives to understand that we aren't aliens and we aren't robots we are very sensitive people that have developed a robust mechanism of data gathering and head work to escape the pains of reality [Music] i love a five these are head types as well and they have a fear of insecurity that they anticipate that the world will demand too much and so if you think that things are going to be taken from you or that you don't have enough to give what happens you begin to hoard and so they're um avaricious uh love love a good passion word avarice they hoard and and this energizes their pursuit of security through withdrawal of the self so but the question is where do they go to find the security how do they withdraw what do they hoard and so self prez fives they withdraw away so they're again concerned they have this it's a withdrawing energy and it's in they if they have a self present energy it's like an inward and singular energy so they have a passion for home and sort of defending their space as a sacred retreat they hoard space they create boundaries they often withdraw physically so they can control the environment because they're very attuned to the environment there they might hide in sort of stockpile resources they also similar to sevens might try and get by on less but actually by social evidence for different reasons um they're more guarded they're a bit less they'd be less communicative because they don't have that real instinctual need for the connection or the belonging it's really just for that kind of safe environment of course they have those other needs but they're not at the forefront they in a in a social setting they might sort of be studying people in a kind of inward way don't but they don't love to kind of expend energy to spend time in social settings this is one of the subtypes that really probably sounds like our archetype of the five but they also they can some of them can just have a warmth about them and maybe even a warmth that they're not aware of um that's not super practiced so yeah it's a self press five the sexual five these are interesting right so we it makes sense to us that the south prez 5 would withdraw away but actually the sexual 5 does somewhat of like a withdrawing towards so they don't really because they have this instinctual need for intimacy and connection which is also mixing with their need to sort of hoard they have a real desire for like a passion for confidentiality and an intimate connection that like they can retreat into so this kind of intimate relationship can yeah it can be sort of a romantic notion and a place that provides meaning for life these can look a bit like fours because they can do some sort of like pushing and pulling as well because they have this need to withdraw but also like a need to retreat into this intimate connection they can also look a bit like sixes because they can test their relationship because they're looking for the sense of like ultimate trust and also kind of certainty and consistency sometimes they're called the secret agent which i love yeah i know yeah yeah but i mean it that that is really fascinating because it's fascinating to me because like i'm such a sharer but i also have a desire for this kind of intimacy right but like so it's a thing i don't understand this sort of like total withdrawal in most situations because i'm maybe this is like the warmth self-preservation warm thing but i'm just sort of like always sort of sharing with everyone so i don't understand this sort of like hyper focus uh but i think it's so interesting and amazing and probably they have incredible relationships so yeah that's the sexual five and maybe not one we think of a lot when we think of fives and the social five so where do they go to find security they go to knowledge and idealism so often they're called the professor they have a passion for like symbols and totems and in a way like if the self-press five withdraws away from and the sexual sort of withdraws towards like a trusted other the social kind of withdraws above they withdraw into kind of like idealism and communities that are built around ideals they want to avoid a sense of meaninglessness um so there's a sort of fourish resonance there too they're just not very interested in like ordinary life they're intellectualizers and experts and so maybe they're interested in it but they go to protect themselves from it they go to ideas right so they want to connect about their ideas and with interesting people they can be more outgoing looking fives this one i think is also kind of part of our understanding of what the five is archetypally because we're like because they're so knowledge focused and we often talk about knowledge when we talk about fives so yeah yeah these these fives are different in terms of how they withdraw and when where they withdraw to but if you if you mix them with that instinctual those different instincts i think it kind of makes sense you know how they end up showing up in the world there's a sense of i think with all of them still a sense of distance and boundaries so they they do look a little bit more like each other than say like the sixes that's what i'd say about the fives you know fives are uh some of my favorites too not just because michael gunger the co-founder of the liturgist is a five although that plays a a not insignificant role just so appreciate the different ways that you know we think of like the ivory tower horde energy posture with a five but the way that the subtypes can actually say well no look actually there can be tremendous warmth here there can be tremendous charisma there can even be profound ability to create intimacy and connection which is some of my favorite things about fives i love talking about weird heady i mean obviously that's a huge turn on for me i enjoy it a lot but what i really enjoy with fives is the depth of relationship you can get into with the five and that was always a mystery to me until i learned about instinctual centers yeah and i i really appreciate that because with the five the withdrawal stance it's about security and so relationships and showing up with all of who you are and not even and maybe even showing up not sure if you have everything that someone needs or maybe someone will ask for more than you have to give but learning how to even create boundaries in the moment instead of automatically set those up so that you can create the possibility of relationship that's really cool and that's fun to witness and i too have some good five friends who share with me and have in a way taught me to share in a different way and so yeah i really appreciate that yeah it's very possible [Music] so [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] i wanna watch the universe expand i wanna break it into pieces small enough to understand and put it all back together again [Music] it feels like an out-of-body experience if something gets lost [Music] this one [Music] such strange uncharted territory [Music] between my head [Music] is like i was already [Music] [Music] this energy that i've been hanging [Music] [Music] it's hidden in heartbeats [Music] exhales [Music] [Applause] [Music] hi everybody it's hilary mcbride here again oh gosh aren't they great such a big thanks to annie and mike for sharing some of their insights and wisdom with us just a reminder if you haven't had a chance to listen to the first episode on the gut types you can go do that now and stay tuned we've got another episode coming up for you next on the heart types your hosts for today's show were myself hilary mcbride and mr science mike also known as mike mccark the guest on today's show was annie diamond editing and sound design was done by jaden lee music a special thanks to ryan o'neal of sleeping at last for letting us feature his songs on this episode big thanks to production manager corey pig producer victory palmisano and talent management brent cradle thank you so much for listening and bye for now [Music] you