Episode 61 - The Other Show

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[Applause] [Music] hi liturgists we're in the middle of a really crazy summer michael is on tour with gunger and i just moved my family to los angeles all the way across the country so we asked greg cory and madison to put together a special episode for you instead of just having dead air this week this episode is some of the favorite moments from our other podcast the liturgist conversations our subscribers on patreon picked these as their favorite and we thought we'd give you all a chance to hear what happens on our patreon feed the liturgist podcast is a highly curated sound designed and edited production which brings you the best we can possibly offer on a topic as seen through the lenses of science art and faith that is absolutely nothing like the liturgist conversations which is a completely unscripted real-time raw unedited conversation so let me warn you this episode could push your buttons there will be sexual themes there will be profanity there will be very mature topics discussed because it's a behind the scenes look at what michael gunger and i are like when we're not on stage and not recording though we both work hard at being our authentic selves in public uh we do keep things radio friendly on the liturgist podcast and uh appropriate for public forums when we're on stage and the liturgist conversations is us at our very most real raw unfiltered selves so if that's something you're not comfortable with i'd encourage you to go and hit hit pause now and come back for another episode of liturgist podcast in the future if you're interested in trying our patreon subscription you can learn more at theledges.com just click the donate now button and other than that we'll talk to you in a few weeks when life settles down [Music] in case any of you doubted when mike says that he's not a viable organism i'm sitting there looking at him right now he's got like a cast on his foot and he's he's not talking my throat hurts so bad he's been recording his audio book so like he did six hours yesterday and six hours a day and he's uh he's real tired he can't talk and i am a little baby he's a baby i did my audiobook in 24 hours now admittedly that's crazy but uh he's doing it all week and he's spacing it out six hours a day and he's still like losing his voice so he's got to save it so he's uh he's mr computer man today neither of us are in great shape though well i'll tell you what's been going on with me this is going to be an odd one to listen to maybe for people but um so this week we went on a my family went on a camping trip with uh amelie's school she goes to like this hippie school in l.a where you know her friend right now inside playing with her is with she's with aaron and pony inside these are you know it's like the typical it's so wonderful it's like it's a loving school if you ask about the school it's like all very a peaceful loving school love it um but we go into camp these camps every year to go camping and uh to get a picture of this school like you have like one kid falls there's only like 13 kids or something but then all the other kids if the kids hurt and crying all the other kids go up and like rub their hands and then they heal they like stretch out their hands and heal the children uh yeah hippie power when we went the first year um we were sitting next to one of the moms was like uh are we in a cult um but we laugh and enjoy it so anyway on this trip apparently one of the people grabbed some sticks for the um for the s'mores that night and they grabbed it from a poison oak bush and uh no shit yeah so everybody like almost everybody on the trip's got poison oak uh and so it's the adults the kids apparently in their throats uh i don't think so i from what i've seen you have to have a uh like if it goes you can get it oil can transmit to food well we're all i mean for that reason everybody's been freaking out a little bit like one guy's face totally did kind of swell up and shut down i thought that maybe i had it in my throat because i had i've had trouble swallowing a couple things but i'm not that was it and i've had some of that before with just my esophagus so i don't know if that affected it or not but i tell you what was affected and this is not an episode you should never have your children listen to this at this podcast by the way just so just but i'll tell you where i really got this guy what are you doing you don't even have to ask do i even need to say it but yes so okay so uh all of a sudden i'm getting real itchy i'm getting real itchy down below and i'm like what is going on because we didn't no it takes a couple days usually before poison oak to start appearing for people um but this is like the day after the camping trip and i'm like what is happening down down there and it's getting real bad and then i start seeing some like you know some red and bumps and and things and that's i'm like not i'm not messing with the penis you know i'm not messing with it so i'm like uh wonderful sound effects i was not expecting it i don't it sounds star wars [Laughter] [Music] um so i um so i call the doctor and my doctor can't see me and it's obviously getting worse and worse by the hour and i'm like i gotta go in so they and you know they're asking me questions like where what's what's happening what i mean i don't know what it is but it's my penis is not doing well i don't know if it's poison oak or something's happening and then so they're asking me all these questions and they found out so anyway i got in to this doctor and it was this young girl doctor and uh i mean she's from hell she probably was like 25 or something i mean she looks like fresh out of medical school sort of thing um so we're talking about it and she's like do you have any bumps anywhere else i think it's poisonous i think by this time by the time i saw her some of the other parents are starting to talk and like i'm something's wrong one of the guys thought he had sun stroke or something and i was like i think it might be poison oak uh and i was like actually i might be and she's like is there anything anywhere else i was like i think i have some bites in my arms and stuff and it seemed really like she was avoiding not wanting to look at the penis she just kept like you know maybe i'll take a look at your arms i think there's like not hardly anything on my arms it's like you really kind of have to see the penis i feel kind of sick so then she like she's like all right let's see it take off the gown and she did like a straight up and by this point it's not looking great i mean it's like it's kind of weird looking you know so she's like pointing at she's like arm's length away from it and kind of stretching her head back and kind of pointing at it and touching it like a dead rat or something she's like yeah let's get some uh tests oh wait actually no she's just kind of didn't know what uh what it was she's like here take some creams or whatever steroid shop no she didn't give me that so she didn't do she didn't know what to do was kind of but she didn't even take a close look at it so then i was i went home with some steroid cream some lighter steroid cream and then the next day woke up and it was like a freaking balloon animal down there it's like all swollen and his face is cringing as it should and probably yours is as well and i was like on my elbow once you got it on your elbow that was bad enough oh right on your penis i mean it's like i'm not i don't i still i guess it's because the skin is just more sensitive than the other areas i certainly didn't run around the place with my pants off um so i don't know why it's only appeared in that maybe you can give me some science here but from what i've read that's just the more sensitive uh high moisture too so anyway it was it was real rough and so i had to go back to the doctor because i was like it's significantly worse and then she saw it the second time and she's like oh yeah i'm gonna get one of my colleagues to look at this too so then she had a nurse come in so now it's two young girls in there and she's snapping pictures of it with her iphone to upload for their server so they can share it with their colleagues i asked her if she wanted my instagram handle to tag me and uh she's like hey you're funny snap snap snap and then they get the dermatologist finally got back and they gave me some prednisone i said keep doing that cream and the prednisone really helped and it's been getting better but i've been i've been managing with like these i've read the debates online between hot water some people say like hot water aggregates the rash but it definitely if you run it under really hot water it's like a motherfucker for a minute and then the itch goes away for like seven hours so it's like just going into traumatizes the nerve endings yeah and one person said it like eases up or gets rid of the histamines for a while or something prevents histamine binding yeah so it i mean but when you first put it under there it's like it's just it's like all of the nerves are going crazy oh and then i'm wearing i'm doing this putting creams on and wearing a dress around the house so the other morning so the other morning emily walks in the door emily's are she helps us and she watches the kids sometimes uh and she walks in the door and i'm just there and i had no shirt on and i had a dress so i just kind of threw a coat on real quick so i just had like a coat and a dress she's like hi oh and then there's one moment so i'm in the middle of all this and the teacher's starting to freak out because you know all these parents are starting to have poison oak and stuff she's calling everybody and figuring out what's matter and she's freaked out about throat stuff or whatever and so i'm with somebody and she's really questioning me like where what's going on with the poison oh do you have poison oak i was like yeah i think so where i'm like i mean you know it's kind of here i'm with somebody and it's just my preschool teach daughter's preschool teacher i'm like uh you know i mean it's different exactly exactly she's really asking uh real specific questions about it that fucking thing is huge yeah that's what i didn't want to say to my daughter's preschool teacher so i just kind of didn't say and then today at school when i dropped off family she's like oh my gosh emily came to school yesterday and told everybody that you had poison oak all over your wiener and that you've been wearing a dress at home [Music] sorry i was late uh to start the recording but i was cleaning and oiling my gun what the fuck [Laughter] i'm saying 100 serious that's not a euphemism for masturbating i was uh i was cleaning and then oiling my side by side 16 gauge parker brothers double barrel shotgun what you do before you put it away so that's an important thing well welcome to literature's podcast shit i my phone fell and i really fucked up the intro on the oh man [Applause] i can't even hear what's going on i heard a collapse and then just calamity and then then some i like moved the i tried to jump over the piano and go welcome there's a podcaster and uh but everything fell it was a disaster oh man that's a good euphemism for my life right now joke joke ruined but uh why are you cleaning a gun mike why do you have a gun yeah that's a that's a that's a much better question for why a left leaning super liberal gun control supporting person has a gun [Music] my grandfather told me he was going to give me that gun when i was five years old and i have very limited firearms experience but most of it is with either my dad or my grandfather and really with that gun and um i'm getting ready to leave the town i grew up in and moved to california and coincidentally right after i move out of my house here my grandmother is moving out of the house that she's lived in for 58 years and moving to tallahassee because she's 92 and having trouble doing things and she didn't want to leave the gun there anymore because she thought someone might steal it so it was mine in the will and so saturday i found myself standing outside my grandparents house realizing it was the last time i would stand in front of my grandparents house as their house uh because grandmother's moving out of it and grand dad is dead and i was holding the gun he told me he was going to give me when i was five and i just started crying so much just like big big tears and uh i hate guns oh my gosh i hate guns but as i held this particular gun all i could think of is how many times that gun fed my grandfather and my grandmother and my mom and my uncle how many times it protected livestock from danger like he wasn't a recreational hunter he was a farmer and this was a working gun and then i thought as a historical artifact as a physical emblem of my family and frankly of tallahassee florida i was honored to take that gun home so i called my dad and today was my uh last visit to the mckarg farm as a tallahassee resident and dad taught me how to clean a gun and uh his is so he's lost a lot of strength in his left arm that he had gotten back after the stroke so he mainly uh instructed verbally and i did like the work but they said when you get home make sure you oil it so that's why i was oiling the gun before the call and we went out in the woods and i shot cans with a gun which is an experience so this is really terrifying i cannot describe it like i know most people shoot guns they're like wow so much power and i'm like oh my god shit so much power that would kill someone i like literally all i can see is just you know bodies falling apart every time you shoot it so um and dad was like real proud because i like it's a double barrel and i shot one can i shot the other you know like in succession and and uh i had to wear like earplugs and ear muffs because the noise bothers me so much just it's really weird for like a for like a pinko liberal gun owner in los angeles it's kind of so did you ever get the taste for shooting oh no no i i do like to clean it and i like to say you know what i mean like i feel like i could be a really good gun technician like hey mike the uh the action's a little sticky i'm like yeah leave it at the shop i'll get to you next week and but they'd have to be like a separate person to test it and fire it but boy could i maintain i mean it looked my i took the department there's parts i don't think my grandfather's cleaned in 20 or 30 years and i i mean it looks that i even oiled the the wood i got a separate wood oil and oiled the stock and uh it's just it's a little it's honestly it's just a it's like a memento a memorial of my roots my heritage and of course i have a bodacious trigger lock on it and uh what does that mean the the you put this lock over the trigger so it can't be fired without a key and this lock isn't just a lock it's a screw so i was like click and it comes apart it's like twist twist twist twist twist twist twist twist twist you have to get it all the way free to use the gun so i figure like a giant trigger lock and never having ammunition at my house is probably as safe as you could be with a gun sure yeah filling it with molten metal so that's my plan is to never have ammo just a gun you're a fascinating man yeah i'm a weird dude well i you know i never like i was always kind of like for many reasons my i'm really was really close to my grandfather so obviously i dreaded his passing but i've also dreaded this issue with the gun left to me in the will so every time my grandmother was like hey do you want this gun i'm like no why don't you keep it there that it's in his bedroom that's where it belongs so it was a big deal to take custody of the gun although like the cat the like uh the capitalists in me parker brothers were really really really nice guns they stopped making them in the 1940s and they are quite valuable really yeah i was i was actually surprised when i looked online at the value of parker brothers guns and uh what what is it yourself or your or your your mother what what's i mean your grandmother what's the what's the uh hold that hold back oh to me having it yeah i hate oh to selling no no no no that would be that's me i wouldn't sell it i just like knowing it's valuable [Laughter] no i wouldn't sell it it's uh it's like his his dad gave him the gun it's not even just like his gun it's like his dad gave him that gun and then he gave it to me i i just i don't know i'm not usually sentimental i think you know that about me yeah that's what i'm i'm like is this mike this is this is one this is one it's sitting there it's crazy but sitting there like cleaning that thing is like holding his hand that's as close as i can get wow to hold in my grandfather's hand man i think i there's i am a southerner like that was my big insight today oh my god i'm a southerner [Laughter] got granddaddy's gun yeah oh and i really wish this was a scored episode because i would i would have had nice like american [Laughter] like plucked acoustic under you would have been real nice yeah they'd be against the rules on the conversations though like what's going on is this the literature's podcast [Laughter] i doubt it i doubt they would care that much [Laughter] it would just set a bad precedent it wouldn't set a bad precedent yes for you most of all for me most of all yeah because i'd be like well i mean we do it sometimes [Laughter] i'm like the fundamentalist that you yeah there's not you can't even be in the same room with the girl what's next it's a slippery slope which by the way beloved patrons if you're wondering what the liturgist podcast would be like if i had creative control this is what it would be like and it's no never no edits allowed scoring no i mean you asked science mike's got the little [Laughter] that's a that's a neurological trigger though that's that's what design [Music] so some of the meditation and buddhist stuff and buddhist thought that i love so much i'm torn because i like i like when you talk about these ideas of the oneness of everything and and non-attachment and the peaceful bliss of being able to see the beauty in all of it there's there's a great aspect to that and there's part of that that i want to invite other people into because it how it's helped me you know it's made my life better and i think it makes the world better but there's also the just like if if that's all if it's just peaceful oneness and bliss we could all just kill ourselves right be the one uh so the the the exciting drama of life of being at the convention of watching the award show being at the sports game and being all in as an ape and just like uh there's going to be suffering and everything attached to that kind of engagement with the world but it's also why else it's part of being human and why else it's part of the beauty of all of this that's a remember that story that i told you about the monk who got to the point where his like his work was really trying to get attached to things and trying to trying to forget his uh his enlightenment and just being a human ape really really caring about who wins this sports game so i hate to go all sunday school on you but uh someone asked me on twitter what the liturgists believed about the gospel to which i replied nothing the letter just don't have opinions the people in the liturgists have opinions and ideas but it got me thinking about like what's the gospel to me yeah and i am puts on skin yes yes and comes and teaches and serves people that don't understand i am [Music] and isn't heavy-handed about trying to get them to believe right i am right but that that it's an immediate dwelling into attachment and into suffering there is an attachment in if it's possible let this cup pass from me or forgive them they know not what they do and all that is a choice to embody and incarnate to take this beautiful enlightenment and awareness of the oneness and to carry it back into the illusion or the dream of individuality and that's why i find the teachings of jesus to be instructive and informative to the teachings of buddha and vice versa i think buddha is is better at helping you transcend into the oneness uh practically and in practice but then jesus helps you carry that oneness back out into this sense of division which is why i love this cosmic christ how christ is what an invitation into the oneness by the oneness incarnating the dream motherfucker so i'm excited about these meditations man yeah beautiful [Music] it's normal at so many different points in our life to feel like something is getting in the way of being present or happy something stopping us from achieving the goals that we have for ourselves or feeling connected to the people that we love better help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist to help you work on all those things you can connect with someone in a safe and private online environment for that reason it's so convenient you don't even have to leave the house you can start working with someone in under 24 hours when working with someone through better help you can send a message to your counselor at any time and get a timely and thoughtful response plus you can schedule weekly video and phone sessions betterhelp has licensed professional counselors who are specialized in treating things like depression anxiety navigating family conflicts and so much more they're committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they make it easy and free to change counselors if needed anything you share with your counselor is confidential so many people have been using better health that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states start living a happier life today as a listener you get 10 off your first month by visiting betterhelp.com liturgists join over 1 million people taking care of their mental health again it's betterhelp h-e-l-p-com liturgists what is artistic appropriation versus just the way that human culture has developed in that there is no such thing as pure culture left on planet earth yeah definitely in the in the age of the internet it it makes it before the age of the internet okay i've been reading sapiens and he talks about how even that like you think of italian food what do you think of you think of like tomato sauce and that wasn't yeah originally they didn't have tomatoes in italy for most of italian history that at some point that got important or indian food with its spices it's always thought of as very spicy and the peppers that they use and stuff they didn't have that until somebody already went to mexico and colonized mexico and then brought back peppers from mexico to india okay so like the world has been a hodgepodge of influence and mixed culture for hundreds of years totally but i don't think we've been seen as fast as you have till the internet or the expediency of it what you say i also think culture should be up for grabs i think at least in the america the american democracy experience that's experience that's kind of the purpose is we are coming together of you know different cultures and people can appreciate those cultures partaking those and i think the issue of appropriation is a power issue very much similar to racism i think appropriation in a negative sense i think what can be negative about appropriation is when the people that are the guardians of culture and power at least you know in terms of top tier begin to appropriate things that are not true to them but begin to profit primarily off of other people's culture while excluding other people so like let's take pop music for example pop music has become an amalgamation of lots of different genres but i would say the predominant theme through pop music now um outside of edm but even a lot of edm now is uh black music hip hop and r b for instance there aren't any r b artists on the chart right now in mainstream music there isn't you could say beyonce and rihanna but they're really more uh pop and then you would actually argue their last latest records are going back to a more rootsy type of r b but other than them what blackmail r b singer is really on top of the charts anymore but but look who's doing that sound it's nick jonas it's uh you know selena gomez it's like so much of soul music r b music is being appropriated by white people in a very and they're dying why is that appropriation i think it's i i don't think it's wrong for them to do it i think it's wrong i think it's wrong when people are when uh it feels and i'm not totally in the industry but i do know some people in the industry that uh if you look this way then you can sing this and if you don't you're not you you know you're not on radio they don't let you on radio and so i think a lot of black artists feel excluded from the space that they helped engineer pioneer uh and a lot of white artists are taking that sound and using it and becoming mega magnum mega off of it the historic in the context of colonialism what brought tomatoes to italy what brought peppers to india what destroyed local culture europeans on boats colonizing nations that's what did it and so now that group who through colonialism extracted wealth and global power then utilizes the cultural artifacts they gain through conquest to continue to further and cement economic and cultural power that's why appropriation is problematic it is a white executive in new york manufacturing plastic native american headdresses in china and getting rich selling them on halloween while actual native american children are stuck on reservations at the edge of poverty and an ever dwindling percentage of the population and i would and i would add to that by saying it's only that was articulated that was that was a killer i want to clean you on that one uh i would also add to that too that it becomes problematic for white people that do that music to not recognize that that's what is going on and happening so when when kylie jenner is you know rocking cornrows and she's acting like she's the one that invented it you know black women take that personally so so tell me what black person invented r b in a pure unmixed culture sort of way it's not about the purity or on unmixed-ness your testicles are gigantic like michael says things i won't think i i like don't don't hear me incorrectly i agree that there are cultural effects of colonialism um and supremacy and racism that that come into effect in arts and trade and all these things i just think cultural appropriation can be a lazy answer to it in a way in the way that sometimes people kind of simplify okay fair fair but that you said about anything though like people can just be easy in their understanding of that or well but also there's a there's i meet i've met people that are like artists for instance that actually care a white artist i remember meeting who uh is really influenced by uh latin music and mexican music and different sorts of different styles of from mexico and latin america and feels he asked like is it appropriation for i grew up on this music i love this music is it appropriation for me to use this can i do i have to do i have to play like what what's not what's not appropriation i mean again and i don't think it's wrong to i don't think he should feel bad for that but i do think and it sounds like he already has the awareness he has the awareness of what he's walking into in terms of and also his popularity could very well depend on you know him doing him doing the style of that version that gets popularized you know and then he it's almost kind of like i think you know we i was talking to somebody about the caitlyn jenner thing right it's like you know you had actual trans people looking at caitlyn jenner like how do you get to be the representation of my struggle now because you don't fully represent for you know the majority of this community you don't represent the pain and struggle you actually can afford to make yourself look a certain way you can do the surgery you know and there were people you know lots of people in the trans community were really frustrated with that that to me is an instance of and not to be little whatever caitlyn's experience uh of herself is as much to say hey i'm walking in with so much privilege and power that i could actually dominate a space that other people uh fought to occupy okay but every creative person that's why i said the issue about telling me the black person that created r b out of a pure black culture gospel tell me gospel music is not a pure culture they used blues blues is not okay take away take away european harmony you don't have the blues i don't know that whether that's a fact or not it is i've studied music history you can't you can't take african american music was a blend of african music and american music which stemmed a lot of it came from by people who were involuntarily of course but they still gained the the benefit of hearing how did they gain some harmony i'm talking about artistically yeah where did they where did the slaves hear it i'm really wondering i don't know i mean some of the early blues uh like from the field songs and stuff arguably some of that was pretty african just the the singing in the fields i guess then once you start incorporating guitars and that stuff that's from spain yeah but a lot of those those art forms were crafted in response to oppression by europeans i don't think it's problematic to appropriate european cultural traditions it was it was also all they had like you know too like it the problem again is the dynamic of systems of oppression and economic extraction if you eliminate those forms of injustice i will refuse to hear arguments about appropriation you see what i mean because then it really is a label level playing field the problem is when people with economic and cultural power use the cultural norms of less advantage or more marginalized cultures to get even more wealth and power that's when appropriation so where's the fix where's the fix of appropriation who does that where's the onus overhaul the global geopolitical economic system to eliminate injustice or at least minimize it but that has nothing to do with the artist right i mean as far as like what you're using what you're using inspirationally to create if we talk about a society as a collection of individuals i suppose not but that system of market driven personal incentivization is why we're in the barrel of shit we're in we either volitionally enlist ourselves in the struggle or we're part of the problem yeah but i i don't i think i'm getting pretty radical i don't know if anybody's catching this in radio land but the creative world it's never every creative person that i can ever think of back to bartok was stealing from hungarians and you're like the europeans were stealing it was they you go and listen to these folk songs you know they were stealing and and the hung maybe the hungarians had heard some russian folk songs and the russians had heard some iranian things it was there's never no i'm not saying you know i'm never involved in other cultures yeah we don't disagree with them you can't wholesale like if you're a chef and you're opening a restaurant in la i don't think it's problematic if you're a white chef to make a taco dish no i think it's problematic to open a mexican restaurant you see what i mean unless you got the support of that community and they're like yeah and you're investing in the profits from that are invested back into that community okay how does that is there a musical equivalent to that yeah there is like i mean i don't know shit but i don't i've never found your work to be appropriative but i have found it to be broadly culturally inspired yeah and you but you have an appreciation so i no one's going to put that and maybe you felt that i don't i don't i don't know if anyone is going to put that label on you because of if they get to know you they know your history they know your complexity they also know your your value for where those things came from um so you can always feel that you can always like people always pay homage back to where it came from people that aren't appropriating have no problem being like like if kylie jenner is rocking cornrows she's like oh like i got this from these girls over here you you own it you say and i think that's where the culturally feels disrespectful so especially if you're a black woman and you can't go to work with cornrows in but kylie jenner makes it cool and then people change their policies about what kind of hair you can wear because kylie jenner made it cool to do cornrows and black women for decades were going why couldn't we do that or dreadlocks even you know that in a lot of corporate spaces you can't have dreadlocks like black people they eat my cousin is a loctitian in atlanta in atlanta and so she has to she works a lot of people with delta these big corporations and she has to do their dreadlocks have to be up in a bun and they have to like go in every week and get it like do this whole thing just so they can work their jobs because delta decided that dreadlocks looks bad and is not like you you're not properly grooming and so if you're going to have that you've got to do this and so in culture when those things change oftentimes they're not changing because those people are actually taking a stand and saying this is how our culture this is how we dress is how we wear can we be ourselves in this public space oftentimes it is white people taking those things and making popularizing them and then everyone's like okay we're cool now and then if you're a person of color going like what the fuck you know like that feels like wait you told us no harbinger of cultural legitimacy becomes the adoption of the white populace yes i guess just as a person you think a creative person that's my job that's my like um and from all that i know of creative people's history and where how creation happens in the world and even somebody like beyonce you mentioned who you say is going back to her roots um but also has very white she's got jack white on her record and uh straight up like rock and roll which came from chuck berry which some of it did yeah yeah it also came from the beatles and it also came i mean there's there's white influence in rock and roll totally totally i know um and that's on her and country i just don't think you can appropriate white culture there's no such thing as white culture they're old now that's a big one they that's that's there is absolutely white culture we say there's no such thing as white culture because it's just normative culture we call culture everything that's not white in america like a suit and tie to the office being on time uh like precisely on time everybody sits in the meeting mainstream culture is dominant white is white culture it's not dominant white it is people of color have to put on a white uniform to exist in white culture if they don't if you're a student this happened in my city in maine national news a black child wore her hair naturally and was threatened with suspension because of her extreme afro right all she did was do the same thing to her hair the white students did only in her case it did this instead of this and that was unacceptable to the point of expulsion that's insane it's normal it's what happens every day everywhere in this country not everywhere in this beautiful world what hairstyles are allowed all of it is normative for white and we say whites don't have culture what we mean is all acceptable culture you can't say everywhere in this country is going to expel a black girl for leaving her hair yeah that might sound extreme go talk to black women yes about their children in school and hair and you will find way more stories than you would probably care to listen to i know that it happens way more than you i i'm not saying that news i'm not saying it doesn't happen a lot i'm saying you can't make a universal statement like you can't make a university about anything okay but fair enough but in the construct in which states may be made yes it is it's common a universe unless we want to go to legal fine print language for common usage it's perfectly acceptable within the vernacular exactly that happens everywhere it's it's what mike said and it's way more common than you realize i like this like when we walk around we walk around we're walking around in dc that's why culture that's all that's a american emulation of british parliament that's our culture that's what we do everything's in order everything's in row respect the flag all of that is white there's absolutely white culture is invisible to us because everyone else when they enter our spaces adopts our norms and so one of the the best things that has happened to me in my life was in school the white kids wouldn't play with me and beat me up and so i would hang out with the black children and i was the only white kid and so like their what they did in the classroom to emulate what cultural norms went away they were themselves and every time a white person is in a space that's not white majority you start to see what white culture is so as much as possible i intentionally immerse myself in situations where i'm one of the only white people there uh because it helps open my eyes to what my culture is i think the biggest problem with appropriation is the degree to which white people seldom know what their culture is we intentionally erased our ethnic european identities in it to create the amalgam of whiteness in america to justify to unify europeans in segregation so that that's where the concert came from and in the process we erased our ethnic identities and assimilated air quotes and at that point uh sowed the seeds of appropriation which frankly is a relatively minor issue on the scale of the structure of white supremacy uh it is i i'm nowhere nearly as concerned about cultural appropriation as incarceration and police brutality and economic inequality and all those things but it is one factor of that larger system totally that perpetuates white control of society and i agree with you in a sense that i do think some of the rhetoric around it can be so hypertized like [Laughter] so the problem to me is when i look at mainstream culture it's racist it's been co-opted by white people through slavery and jim crow and all sorts of horrible um ways but but i guess what i'm saying is what's the what's the grand vision here aside from an economic and and educational and and all just equality and empowerment all across the board when you're talking about issues of appropriation and creativity and culture and art what's what's the goal what's the what's the um i think the goal should be everyone should have an appreciation um for the richness of diversity and that should be the goal in creativity and of course there's going to be overlap there's going to be sharedness we have a shared humanity and a shared commonness and that's what makes i think this country great and that's what makes us uh a unique experiment probably in maybe in the world stage is that we are trying something you know that maybe has never been fully done i don't know i'm not a historian uh but this sense of our shared humanness shared commonality and we can bring our uniqueness to the table and it all be celebrated and all be um accepted uh versus pillaged ripped away taken and monetized and you know shipped overseas and you know yeah again going cultural appropriation it all goes back to dignity respect acknowledgement yeah if you do that people will allow you to appropriate culture and feel good like you know what i'm saying like because they feel like oh you get us even if you don't give the money or whatever they're like oh he he's from us or she's you know they they they like you know people is like as long as you it's like hip-hop call you know you pay respects to the mcs that have gone before you you don't disrespect them or you don't act like you are the one that's you everyone can feel like they're the best but no one can disrespect the ones that paved the way that went before anybody that's using a keyboard with 12 tones you owe some shit to bach and bach gets so much respect even now still in culture yeah but also also you don't get i just nobody gets to appropriate white culture nobody if you do there's legal consequences you go and try to appropriate uh a codec created by a tech company that's protected by a patent yeah they will be all up in your shit successfully yeah that's another language conversation bankrupt if the thing with white culture is we have the systematic legal protections means to preserve and protect our intellectual property and cultural norms with the force of law yep i guess i'm getting at for me again coming from a primarily creative lens is the nature of creativity to me at its essence is stealing from other people in other cultures same with culture that's up yeah but that's what we see monkey do yeah that's all that it is my point is we need the point of the appropriation conversation is not to say creativity's wrong or using and being inspired or taking from other people's uh creativity is wrong it's to draw attention to the role that the natural normal function of language and culture and creativity are pro they're coming from a soil and that soil is white supremacy and so the reason the fruit is weird is because of the soil not wait the tree again it's not just white supremacy that our language is coming out of no no no agreed but i'm saying the the the nutrient balance in the soil is so far off yeah the fruit is weird and that doesn't mean the problems with the tree and we keep talking about the tree the tree the tree i'm talking about the soil yeah we've got to work on the soil and the roots and but this working on the soil will affect the root will affect the tree so what we talk about is the fruit the tree and we ignore the soil because frankly the soil is terrifying and seems impossible right so we deal with what can we deal with this is weird up here this is a problem up here and what that's what's at its best what it's trying to do is call attention to the overall systemic problem yeah that might be the last articulate thing i can say that's i mean that was my that was my whole point of my book good job the crowd's going to the muse was that exact analogy it's like fucking book thanks appreciate it i own it but i never but but like creative we we the when we're at the level of creating something we are at the level of the tree that's yes and sometimes it is important to like take a moment and say where in what kind of soil is this coming from those are important questions to over simplify this is black music and this is white music i'm white so i better only make white music i think that's a mistake an oversimplification and uh and not part of the solution [Music] maybe [Music] it's getting dark here so the street the lights have come on but it's real dark outside and i'm guessing i'm not good with yardage but 30 yards away a man just came out of the trees and is shambling towards this uh thing i mean what it's real spooky dude i'm having a genuine physiological reaction to this person what what do you mean he came out of the trees like out of the woods down by the just river along like not on a path just kind of through the grass b-lining straight with this building well that's that's an interesting experience now we all look more like a zombie movie if i had staged it and was filming [Laughter] even the no leaves on the trees man this is i'm not am i weird if i go lock the sliding glass door that you used to get on because that's gonna stop a zombie sliding glass you know what it'll give you a couple minutes i say for the sake of the drama for this for our little podcast here you should do it should lock see what happens like last door should probably put my boots on because i'm barefoot i'm in socks that's not gonna be good to run through the portland wilderness i'd like to see another person other than this guy dude that guy's nsa he heard your jerusalem thing somehow he's walking real unsteady and there's nobody here this is a parking lot still empty man this is so creepy she's still walking right for you yes i just walked that i'm walking all around the place looking out the parking lot i just got outside the other door there's nobody here man it's just me and champlin man what what's he doing now where is he he's still walking doors in shack he was pretty far off closer now oh man now i want to score this episode and put some creepy music on it i'm running up and down the hallway because i'm trying to go to windows where i'm not backlit so he can't see me looking out the window okay he just sat down zombies won't sit down but he's sitting down in the field not in a chair i think he's drunk there's a bar down the street i think that guy's drunk i like that i'm the only person here did he he didn't try the door no he's he's like i don't know how far away that is like from your back door to the bricks at the end of your yard that distance yeah yeah and he just sat down on the ground now he's laying down on the ground oh man what if he's not well i guess that's your foot god dang it you gonna ask him if he's all right i'm gonna go ask him he's all right you know people ask me that sometimes that's the kind of shit i do just walk into a field and lay in the grass he wasn't walking normal though like he was real he was zombie walking so if a zombie eats me now one michael posted this episode as a public safety announcement for the world who family i love you three don't publish his journal but it's not gonna matter if the zombie apocalypse is here how old would that be we're all worried about trump and nukes and the climate and what actually got us with the zombies oh it'd be pretty great this is dead again yeah wasn't that like the revelation it's been happening i'm uh rusty on my revelations but don't the dead rise something at the end for a while for the millennial reign of christ i cry oh man this is so weird what if it's actual zombies that'd be amazing all right i'll walk i'm walking towards him there's a slight a slight probability that if somebody programmed this universe if we're inside a computer simulation if i programmed it i might end it like that yeah that'd be a good that'd be a fun way to do it hey man you okay are you hey that's not a good place to lay down it's cold out here sure you're okay all right a real drunk guy there's some real drunk guy that's what that is i like to get real drunk in a small town and walk onto a church camp and lie down in a field that's a good time that's what i do party he's still laying there all right here we go okay well at least he's not a zombie i got myself real freaked out there that was not acting for the radio that was uh that was my real lived experience uh it was good it was good radio i enjoyed it everybody's imagination surprisingly thrilling episode of the liturgist conversations oh man maybe it was uh maybe it was like tim kaine or something out there [Laughter] but first we're getting a few drinks you killed your son in cold blood [Music] so i wouldn't have to [Music] you would not there goes all our patrons i mean listen next time you hear church songs how much that story infects church songs it's i agree one thousand percent it's unbelievable it's like how can we because what you're thinking as a church songwriter i used to write songs not totally murderous but you know what i mean i mean borderline you're thinking as a songwriter okay we need we need to stir up gratitude we need to stir up praise and thanks thankfulness and love how can we do that what has god done for us well i and the first thing that you think of is i don't have to go to hell because jesus died for me god killed his kid so he doesn't have to murder me torture me let's sing about that so that's like i don't know i don't know if i could say most but it's so pervasive through church music i don't like singing those songs greek orthodox theology solved this before the great schism salvation is a healing of sickness not an absolution of crime there you go and a reflection of humanity and grace and a tremendously infinitely deep image perspective metaphor of reality that has inspired billions of people for thousands of years and in better ways often than with the murder your kid story i mean we could start and then somebody else asked about sports i hear you guys never talk you never talk about sports like ever what are your thoughts on sports and sports fans i'm going to start with that one and then we can hit those other two because they're good all right i i've always hated sports and thought they had some advantages in terms of confidence building and limited contexts but otherwise were a drastic waste of resources that could be better spent in academia or literally anything else and that they made people hyper competitive and violent and then i read one study that showed a correlation between global participation in the olympics and a decline in interstate conflict and that somehow sports channels that warrior tribal instinct to battle in a way that is far less destructive than war if sports is basically war masturbation that keeps civilizations from killing each other because they just get their violent energy out through sport uh great bring on the sports i guess i just lack that libido for conquest and victory [Laughter] there you go sports is war masturbation we should have a shirt a litter just t-shirt that says wart we definitely should definitely go war masturbation team [Laughter] yeah i lack the uh whatever that thing is that makes people really like sports i liked it when i was a kid i wonder if some of that was because i i wanted to belong to my tribe my men in my tribe that like sports you know and they seem to value these players greatly but i and i like playing and i liked and i like playing sports sometimes i think it's fun to play a sport uh but i don't you have whatever it is that like go no not you you go i don't it doesn't i don't know it doesn't spark there's okay there's been like a couple of of sports events that i have seen in my life that like really stirred something in my heart like there was like an olympics one time that was like america was the united states was playing canada and it was like this real intense game and the americans were apparently the underdogs in this and i all the sudden since some felt some sort of nationalism and some sort of sports they're like wow what a what an amazing of course it was canada i mean that evil empire has to be stopped at all costs with their free health care but it's funny i get a job and both mike and i have been into gotten into this conversation pretty hard with my brother david who is like sports man and he just we just see things differently we probably need somebody else in this conversation to bring some balance because both mike and i are like yeah it's apes showing their strength yeah we're not the best people and i'm also not very i think for me i'm just not very impressed by human physical abilities because like an average orangutan could do better you know just stronger whatever uh like the strongest biggest guy that's worked out his whole life every day goes up against a normal like sized gorilla female gorilla just no no no contest unless the contest is throwing throwing because we are the best threat all right so so any sport with throwing is a is a display of unique human capability but you could you could program a a machine to throw better we've had great difficulty doing so really if you include the same number of joints with the same degree of rotation yeah the computers have a real hard time our brains have been relentlessly optimized for throwing through our entire evolutionary history well okay i don't know if i agree with you because you could count you could put ammunition into that category and we are far more accurate with a machine you're not throwing the ammunition you're you're shooting yeah again you put a propellant you're right i'm not saying man beats machine universally at taking object from point a to point b i'm saying with an armature as flexible as a human arm taking a variety of objects that are not pre-designed to be thrown or pre-engineered for so a rock a stick a basketball a computer mouse whatever the human arm attached to human brain is a fantastic system for throwing things well there you go go watch some throwing contests yeah discus discus javelin these are good human sports still not very impressive because i think the the uh i'm not i'm not i have no connection or attachment to the mechanism by which projectile gets from a to b right clearly you can design any number of devices that will throw farther and more accuracy a javelin exactly than a humanoid exactly yeah so you're really attached to that that particular mechanism uh yeah okay it's got i mean something in sports has got to be some redeeming this is quality i assume i like sports fans so i got really into college football fans recently so i don't even watch the games but i like to watch the interaction between their voluntary oblique tribalism yeah well that's pretty fun i can chat i can channel my brother for a second bro it's like you like watching a musician play they're doing what they do they're masterful with their craft that's what i'm doing i'm watching these masterful brilliant athletes do what they do best and they're being they're human beings in the fullest sense that they can developing their minds and bodies in ways that you couldn't even dream of bro that's a frighteningly good emulation of what david would say [Laughter] i mean that's like and here here's why i like david gunger so much because he says stuff like that and then i go that's a decent point like he says it with the dave intensity but it also like usually there's a there's a decent point in there too yeah this doesn't do it for because you could you could design a you know you could design a machine that could play guitar parts that no human hands could ever play that's true but it wouldn't be the same i don't find a beauty in the the competitive nature like to me and he would disagree with this because i think there's something fundamental about why he likes sports and why i don't maybe i don't see music or art or film or the things that i love that i like want to watch people do and make what they make and be amazed at it i don't see that as inherently primarily competitive i see it arising out of a different place of the human spirit than i'm going to beat you and maybe that's naive of me but uh i i cause i don't feel that when i'm making it i'm not when i'm making what i'm making i'm not thinking or feeling that i'm trying to do it better than somebody else or that i'm trying to put you know i'm trying to get on top i'm just i'm seeing the art itself i'm saying the thing that i'm trying to do um and make it the best that it can be in my most ideal places i'm not you know i'm sure i've had moments where it's less than ideal in the middle of creating something but um to me that there's a different end goal with art than sports but uh david would disagree i know this because i've talked to him about it he disagrees [Music] yeah we were in san antonio and playing it i think it's a methodist thing which surprises me because i thought you methodists were supposed to be open-minded folks well yeah they're so open-minded you can also be like arts conservative evangelical and still be a methodist that's how they work gotcha you know honestly like uh like jerry falwell and richard rohr would both be welcome in the united methodist wow real broadcast yeah interesting yeah so we were so playing at this college and um all for all these acoustic dates it's all like kind of a mix of question response and music we just kind of flow in and out of it and kind of let the question dictate where we go musically as well that's all the same thing was happening and we were just being ourselves and uh you could i could feel in the room some people get a little clunchy after um one guy that was an atheist raised his hand he was talking he's saying he wasn't a christian and he didn't know how to relate to his family anymore does he need to use christian language and metaphors and such to be able to talk to them uh he didn't want to hide his true self but he also wanted to like be able to have conversations with them and not make them feel alienated and because the way we answer i mean lisa answered first and she just sort of said yeah we've dealt with that with our families as well and we were very i think it was so shocking to me what ended up happening because you know i tell them a bit about how i've how we both have gone through that and got the value of love and the value of seeing the other and and meeting them meeting his family where they're at and not judging them just like he doesn't want to be judged um but you know it sounds like there's just way too many walls and way too many dividing lines in the world already i don't think we need to build another one and uh but that was like that was the whole arc of the answer wouldn't you say yeah i mean we don't know that i it was all the answers we were ourselves so i'm sure there was lots of them to to the people that were being offended they were being we started with mi we started the whole night with this like oh my god [Laughter] well maybe there i did it i'm not sure but anyway at some point apparently they got the the guy the promoter went up to rtm he's like you have to shut this down right now we have church people people from my church that are leaving and upset and you have shut this down they can't keep talking like this um and he's like a woman came up i guess was like a pastor of the church associated with a promoter or something i don't know it was a whole man behind and apparently some of the some of the fans that were there told us afterwards they heard they heard a thing going down behind them they were sitting right there so they rushed up to me well first of all like our tour manager handled it like a pro he was he was really great he just said hey guys how about we're gonna do one more song and and then and then we're then it's done and both michael and i just look at each other you know we're on the stage we don't know what's going on and i said oh whoa oh man is there a sound ordinance you know we're kind of like joking around and because actually even our even the tour manager guy who said tour manager leo he said he thought it was going great and like the banter with michael and i was great and funny and so we felt really light-hearted like it was going great and uh we didn't know about all the arguments behind the scenes so he he says okay we have to we have one more song so he didn't say anything like he said this in the microphone so we do one more song and we go backstage and michael and i are going like what what do you think has happened and i said i'm gonna go out there and i go out and two uh people that were at the earlier show that morning rush up to me and started telling me what went down and then a woman pastor came over and she said some things to me and she was she was nice um they said that there was a miscommunication and they only but they only wanted us to do music please have them stop talking just music and so she was like i'm sorry for the miscommunication again she was really nice and sweet about it and she left and they said that's a lie that's not what happened at all they said we heard all of them talking they wanted to shut the whole thing down and they said this is a christian this is a christian show this i can't believe we're talking about the things we're talking about and there's atheists here asking questions and it's all too open it's it's uh this is not what's supposed to be happening i yeah i mean we're both like wow that's kind of awesome you got shut down and the thing is that working by memphis that's the amazing like shut down by method [Laughter] you know i mean like i like my methodist church in tallahassee literally like nra members and like married women sit next to each other you know what i mean like the tolerance for we don't agree on stuff and the methodist church is high like it's really unbelievably high so that dynamic really really really surprises me maybe they weren't they didn't want to shut people down kind of crew well and that's what i didn't think but maybe their church wasn't maybe the church wasn't methodist maybe we were at a methodist venue i i don't know i don't know i can't i don't know what that means but there's also i mean there's also a different methodist churches that are more conservative than others there are yeah yeah there are that exist um that's the point of the mother's church like i don't know i don't know why i was so brave yesterday i just couldn't leave like i've gotta go i've gotta go back and talk to them this is this is ridiculous and i wasn't con it wasn't going back into like smooth things over i just i don't know what it was i think it's a point probably that michael has hit a long time ago with just being sick of being sick of it you know here he said i talked for a long time i didn't even remember everything i said but he uh i remember the guy saying that we were scooting around god that we didn't say god enough as i said i did say i love god and that's god in my faith essential to my life so that was weird you know i mean it was it wasn't enough to talk about it and he said we were skirting around the issue and we weren't like blatant enough about i i suppose about like the christian faith you know this is but i'm guessing when we were speaking with a you know the young man that was an atheist my guess is that we didn't tell him well you just need to believe in jesus you just need to believe in god and you should repent for being an atheist like that's what i i wonder you know we have uh bastardized the gospel and so we're very careful right well i i just imagine that like michael jackson eating popcorn gift as i listen i'm glad so i get a text leo went in there with her to like watch over and make sure she was okay she was like i gotta go back in and talk to him i have i have nothing to say um but leo's texting me while she's in there talking i'm just going and leo's new with us so he doesn't really know us very well he's like lisa is a badass he is just laying in there right now he's just like that was wrong you had no right to do that this was our show and what you're doing is bastardizing the gospel into this divisiveness it was so funny it's one of those moments in life where you're saying exactly what you want to say like like i remember i had this one one moment in life where playing frisbee uh ultimate frisbee and i'm always bad at it and i had this one game where i was like the champion of the game and that's how i felt yesterday i felt like i was like saying exactly what i wanted to say and i wasn't like i wasn't scared because i can be very intimidated by people and you know me mike i like i'm a big people pleaser you're really interested in people until you're disempowered [Laughter] i feel like i trust myself more these days like i'm going to say this and so i told him that i said i can't leave here without telling you this like that this is how i feel i'm not interested in sending a weird coded email and smoothing things over but uh is he and he kept saying like well maybe it was in this communication because we're understanding each other now and i'm agreeing with you and i was like no this is not a miscommunication this is i want you to know this is wrong this is not a miscommunication this is wrong you shut down you shut it down because um it was uncomfortable you were uncomfortable and if atheists and christians can't be together where they oh he would say well we should have had this in a different venue this shit this should have been this shouldn't have been like in a church we should have been in a different venue and i said where do you i said are you are you kidding me isn't this a very place that you are saying that the people should come together and it's like it's just so much uh hypocrisy it was it was stunning it was just stunning and so then then another man was there and he um asked if he could pray for me which i felt two things i was like okay i have to watch myself here because i on one on one hand i was like oh that's that's sweet and that's nice like yes let's like have unity in the middle of this division right like but on the other hand it was it really felt like i'm a man and now i'm going to pray for this woman and her misunderstanding you know so oh it was kind of a power kind of a power play you should have said yeah i'd love to pray for you too i know i know and then the poor this guy this sweet guy who helped with our merchandise was totally stuck in the crosshairs like he had nothing to do with any of it he was only waiting to tell me uh thank you at the end poor guy his eyes were so big the whole time and i said oh my gosh i'm so sorry that you had to listen to my whole speech thing like i'm so sorry he goes oh my gosh she goes well i i just love to get your email address because i i came back because i have a lot of questions that i'd love to talk to you and michael about and i'm really interested in what you have to say and i was like cool oh man it was a little while he came up like red face to me afterwards like i'm sorry how that went down we didn't really want it to go down like that i was like hey man it's a good story [Laughter] he goes no i'm telling the truth i was like no i'm not saying you're you're making up a story i'm saying this whole thing you shutting down our concert is a fun story he's gonna be his people sorry so thank you oh gosh well and i don't know what happens to you like the way like shit goes down for y'all oh gosh isn't that weird every well not everybody a big portion of my events are in churches i do have science mike and i say it's crazy stuff yeah and like it's an atheist in the crowd it's like 20 or 50 atheists in the crowd and yeah like the pastor of the church is usually there and they come back there's like we're so glad you did that and then you guys are like nothing inflammatory you're just kind to an atheist i'm like shut it down there's something i mean it's it's somewhat it's a lot where we started from but i think this all started as worship leaders yeah and we still sing like we try to move into spiritual moments as far as like you know we have songs like vapor and that are intentionally like sung to god and and mental spiritually and i think people aren't used to having that experience tied to anything but this one really weird subculture of christianity or something i i don't i don't know i don't know how i mean mainstream i don't know i've never been to a worship experience a christian worship experience that's anything sort of but within this evangelical ccm bubble of culture that is definitely conservative leaning and definitely has a theological appropriate boundaries marked out and a lot of times the worship leaders themselves don't believe those things a lot of the people i know in the worship industry uh can't say what they really think about stuff so they just get up and they say the jargon and they paid um yeah like i i think the way you you started mike was michael and i've said this so many times it's like it's the way you start that's how people know you like you started as this more controversial person and i think for us like the first big song everybody knew was beautiful things because like that i mean that was one of the things this guy said to me he said you know beautiful things really changed a lot of their lives i don't know how you could say some of the things you said absolutely and that was weird to me that he thought that i didn't believe that anymore yeah and i think it is it has a lot to do with the language we use the words we're using they think that the words the people i'm wrong and yeah i don't know it i i get it like i do get it i get that because it's happened within my very family you know we have these conversations and its example is like don't say the word then say the word jesus don't say this say that don't say you know it's if you could go back and forth and pick apart the conversation like the words that michael and i say that probably make them uncomfortable because that's what an outsider says so much like enlightenment and love and god in in in finding new language to use like that's been helpful for us yeah i think there's just the the cultural category so like if you think of a think of a country western artist walks in the room picks up his you know jumbo gibson guitar he's wearing cowboy boots and tight levi's jeans and he's got and he starts singing about america and boots and guns and uh god he said something about god like what he okay now that now that's all you know about him what does he think about gay marriage what party does he probably vote for you probably would suspect kind of where he fits in a bunch of different areas you have somebody get up and sing holy holy holy what do they think about gay marriage do they think about evolution it just kind of goes there's these packets of cultural information that usually go together and we don't like strip it from a religious context and you've got the dixie check yep like their audience but they deserve their music didn't change it was just literally they admitted they were different politically and everybody's like wait what yeah that's not the package you can't be different than that and then and then people are really hurt because they feel like you've lied to them but you haven't like we've not been lying to people we haven't we've been i feel like we've been trying to be the [Laughter] because i know other people's lives oh i just make it i feel like i'm just starting to go crazy with it like i i get the humor and like last night we were laughing and it was great and this morning i woke up just so frustrated with all with with the system like i'm frustrated with this system and i've recently been having like other other uh women like texting me other artists and authors and who are just now getting like a taste of this or people leaving their church or they said something and and so they're all going how did you guys deal with this like i can't believe that you're still speaking to this crowd or still even still like have faith at all you know like well forgive and live open oh still live open but it's like it's so so frustrating that the hypocrisy is rewarded yeah if i was a young earth creation scientist i would drive a bentley yes you would i would stalk in stadiums drive a bentley if i just like lied about like i could make it sound convincing like made people feel like they could go on the internet and take on richard dawkins i couldn't i would look myself in the mirror and then bang my head on it until i was dead you know like i couldn't no you know what i mean like i would look i would just hate myself yes uh i mean i remember when we played mafia that night and you had to lie to us in the game and you went into the sink that was really funny but here's the thing like right so like you get shows shut down and there's a whole swath of places i'll never get invited but at the end of the day being truthful about who you are and what you believe you sleep better i don't think i could get ego annihilation or a sense of oneness and meditation if my public face was a lie yep i think that that consistency in word and action and thought and feeling these are all things that help us arrive at a place where we can receive the divine and participate in to use some language and what god is doing in the world it requires that kind of consistency and honesty yes when there's that do you do i accept myself to get into that place of meditation you have to develop this muscle of non-judgment and love and acceptance and yes and if you are saying no to your very soul constantly you can't just go in and all of a sudden like say yes to everything except that um that's shutting down yourself and your relationship to god reality the universe whatever you want to call it in in the closest sense so i think that i think that's why you see jesus whenever he's mad he's mad at these hypocrites he's mad at these people that have this external bullshit thing going down where they act like they're all holy and righteous but they're really cutting themselves off right at the soul right at the heart of it and they don't mean it so they're not even true to who they are they can't even say yes at step one of who am i and um so women where are your accusers like and nothing well i don't accuse you they they're not here i don't accuse you but then like the guy is like i keep all the commandments what should i do i'm so badass he's like sell everything you own and give it to the poor you know like the lady who's like been caught in this culturally awful thing uh supposedly could be stoned for it he's like hey i don't condemn you and the guy is like i've got it nailed he's like sell everything you have to give to the poor or you can't go in the chemical heaven and just it's literally in the bible in the book that is so important oh man [Music] so we made it through i may have lost us a lot of people i may have lost more of my own fans in mocking fucking christian worship songs um i like to keep it weird and talking about my penis for 15 minutes because most most of us we want to we want to imagine you know christians don't have genitals no not most of it not the most people listen to this this is how we get the show done we talked about doing a shirt with like a circle and a picture of my swollen bulbous rotting looking penis on it and then one wildlife and with that i bid you adieu [Music] you