Episode 75 - Tongues

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[Music] one in five available tickets for the liturgist gathering in austin is already gone oh that's good almost one in four actually it's the fastest uh ticket sales we've ever had so i guess people are excited about us going to texas they've been asking for a while they have been asking for a while and we did have a a dallas gathering slated way back in the day did we yeah i don't even remember that yeah then you and i went on tour through texas oh i do remember that which hurt ticket sales i guess yeah we're looking forward to it though we've got hillary mcbride coming we've got william matthews coming of course mike and i um and all the normal hijinks of the gatherings we do talk about great stuff we hang out with amazing people um we will have a patron after party with hopefully some dancing again maybe some booze maybe actually maybe some dancing definitely some booze i i get drunk like four or five times a year there are about four or five gatherings here oh man i'm getting like i was already excited now i'm like legitimately excited right now [Laughter] so come join us grab your tickets the liturgistgathering.com [Music] i was introduced to tongs about a year and a half after i had became a christian [Music] my observation of it seemed very naive or hey like i i earned this badge somehow my interpretation as like a nine-year-old girl was if you spoke in tongues your prayers would be answered and you were much holier than everyone since deconstruction tongues is one of few things that leaves me confused and curious and i am 22 now and still do not speak in tongues but quite a while ago i decided you know what i don't think it actually matters i don't think that the holy spirit has to be synonymous with speaking uh gibberish anymore i speak in tongues um i don't know if it's real or what it is or what the point of it is and it could all be gibberish and it could all be nothing and that's okay um but it helps so when i was about 34th grade my dad came in my room and he prayed with me he read me scriptures and 20 scriptures about um praying tongues from the bible and acts in corinthians and then he just showed him a short little phrase or told me a sort of a phrase like abba allah or abu khan out of coda i can't remember which and so just repeat that over and over again until it started to change and that changed since it wouldn't really be my direction but it would be the holy spirit direction changing it would be um i think you should get a tongue so it was very easy going and a very nice experience pleasant experience and since then i pray in tongues whenever i am i have wanted to i had been helping this man who had been living in homelessness and after a few weeks he had shared with me that he had this gift that he felt like he was supposed to share with me and that was him speaking in tongues but he said he didn't want to weird me out so he was asking permission to do it first and i said well sure of course he can do that and so he shares this thing that had this you know a lot of kind of throat clicking and a lot of mums and babas and it just sounded really weird i didn't really understand it and so when i got home i told my roommate about i was like this really strange thing happened to me where this guy started speaking in tongues and my roommate goes i can do that too with me and i said well would you mind sharing it does and he says something that sounds exactly like what this man said and i didn't know what to do with that it sounded almost identical if it wasn't just the dialect i didn't really know what to do with it [Music] tongues baby robo i heard lots of shabba i want there's got to be syllables that are more often used in tongues than others yeah no probably not a lot of like quib probably not a lot of quib no quips jilt yeah no i'm gonna be real i've never heard anyone speak in tongues other than very short audio samples online really yeah southern baptist right not a thing i mean it's in the bible so it's okay but if you want like some real powerful quiet shunning show up to a baptist church for the first time raise your hands and start speaking in tongues and just the like the icing that will occur around you it's not subtle and then the pastor will come out of charge and say hey you have the gift of tongues did you notice that there was an interpreter or not oh there was no interpreter it's unbiblical ouch what if you came with an interpreter that would put a real real conundrum for the baptist i think they would just resort to sustained social shunning wow like just no one would ever talk to you wow i would love to go to a southern baptist church and be one of your interpreters just keep it biblical just keep it biblical they would they would also test everything you're saying against the bible because if it's if you're speaking in tongues there has to be interpreter but what the interpreter is saying has to i'm just going to read like habakkuk or something like that oh that's what she was doing listen to this that was the first chapter this is just reciting false prophecy yes false prophecy [Music] how do you know if you're speaking in tongues good question i imagine that you're speaking in a language especially if you don't have the gift of interpretation that you can't understand but is coming out of you how do you know you're not just making sounds um okay so when i was 18 years old i was at a youth conference my denomination was putting on a youth conference and we were pretty we were black holiness but we actually weren't pentecostal and believe pentecostalism we didn't practice it like i occasionally heard someone speak in tongues in my church but it wasn't a uh prominent thing i grew up church of god out of anderson indiana and so we believed in it we didn't say it wasn't real though my grandfather who was a minister he didn't believe in speaking in tongues and try to talk people out of it a little backstory so when this denomination brought in a guy named bishop george bloomer i'll never forget it he was a bit of an outlier because he basically preached on the baptism of the holy spirit meaning that there was a second infilling of god's spirit after salvation that led to a type of evidence known as speaking in tongues so he said he knew he was speaking to a youth denomination that didn't fully know what to think about that and had never probably been given the invitation to receive that so i remember when he did that i just ran to the front i was like i want god so whatever that looks like and so i ran to the front and he got off the stage it's probably maybe i would say it's about fifteen hundred two thousand kids um and he began to like lay hands and pray on every to everyone in the line some people fell out some people still stood he laid hands on me and probably within 30 seconds i instantly start speaking in tongues and a lot of other people around me were doing the same thing it was such a unreal encounter in the sense of it felt like it felt like someone had taken me and threw me in the deep end of water and next thing you know something was coming out of my mouth that felt bigger than me that's all i had it just felt like somebody took a hose a fire hydrant and like just like blasted me and that's what it felt like it felt like i was drunk it felt like it was unreal and uh and a lot of people that night got that gift so to speak and so not everyone but uh a lot of people did i would maybe even venture to say half if not most so that was a pretty interesting phenomena i think the guy ended up never getting invited back and the denomination like fired the guy who invited him yeah because they weren't sure what they thought about that in terms of preaching it in that way or making it seem like this denomination didn't have it so i would say what happened right after that was i remember going we were in a hotel i went to a hotel room somebody was extremely sick and we were like let's pray for them and god's gonna heal them so we went to this room and prayed for our friend who had been in bed all morning and was not feeling well and i can't remember at the time what it was or what she had it was something and next thing you know it was like 10 of us in a room we started praying for her and she feels miraculously better and she's like crying and she's like oh my god like she felt like god healed her and that that was like back to back for me so here i am experiencing these supernatural so to speak encounters with god at 18 years old and i would say from that moment on that's when i decided i wanted to do music and ministry before that i had always said i was going to go to school and be a teacher i had no desire my dad was a pastor my grandfather was but i had no desire to do anything ministry related and after that experience my life changed i couldn't stop praying i couldn't stop i got quote unquote on fire for god that's when that happened and then uh not too short after that i went to a team mania and acquired the fire but that i would say that was a pivotal experience for me that set me on a completely different life course because of that experience of the baptism of the holy spirit wow do you still speak in tongues here and there truthfully i don't do it as much anymore i think for me speaking in tongues for a long time it felt like a way to energize my spirituality and prayer life and i think i always then from that moment on surrounded myself in environments that believed in speaking in tongues practiced it you know i mean when i was traveling doing music i mean i was speaking singing in tongues on stage all the time like i mean there's youtube videos of me singing in tongues out there but singing and talking singing in tongues yeah with music like how opposed would you be to me having a clip of that happening no no no no no no well okay truthfully i don't feel shame about it i don't feel bad about it i don't feel like it was wrong or i it was theologically incorrect i don't think any of it was as well for me i think part of the reason why i slowed my role if not outright stopped speaking in tongues was because i think everything that was associated with speaking in tongues the culture the charismatic prophetic culture that came along with that and though i found it enormously helpful early on i i found it less so later on and not to say that i won't go back to it or it won't be something that maybe becomes vital to my spiritual practice again but uh i just made it less vital you know at the time it became a dividing wedge truthfully and i think the topic of tongues has always been a dividing wedge in the church because the ones who have it always want to get the ones who don't have it to have it and the way it's preached and it's almost like when the baptism of the holy spirit is preached it's always preached in a way of like you need more of god in your life and until you're doing this you're not having more of god and so for everyone that got it got the gift or utilized the gift or felt that experience there was always to me another person who felt alienated by that gift who felt pushed out who felt you know it actually made my relationship with my parents really tense because me and my older sister spoke in tongues before they did and that that became a bit of a contentious moment it changed the way i view church i was like well why don't you preach this why don't we practice this and it instantly became a very alienating experience i think the whole charismatic thing unfortunately uses those gifts as a type of way to mark the ones that are really on fire for god and the ones that aren't yeah and becomes exclusionary it becomes very exclusionary and and there's layers to that right like in particularly pentecostal churches you don't speak in tongues unless the spirit gives you utterance which means that you might not you might only speak in tongues once in your life like certain black kojic denominations believe that even white pentecostal denominations think like the spirit gives you the utterance charismatic was different because they believed that anyone through faith could exercise and practice the gifts so therefore we can just pray over you and you know you can have it and you can use it anytime you want to so even there's theological riffs inside of like the tongues department so to speak do you think it was helpful for you to speak in tongues absolutely truthfully and this was my experience at the time the difference to me felt like hey you want to go to the mall yeah let's jump on the horse and get there or hey do you want to get them all let's jump in a car there was something about the the energizing effect of speaking in tongues in terms of how to feel connected to god felt the difference between horse and buggy to ford and that was the only way i could describe it um i was like i think i shared on the meet the host episode i went to a catholic church too after i spoke in tongues it was hard for me to go back to the catholic church you know i was like i would imagine yeah those are pretty far poles in the western church yeah there are catholics that speak in tongues though there are there are just being a normal mass like a normal eucharistic mass versus charismatic tongue so that's a pretty big pretty big and very different and i remember when i stepped out of that confirmation class slash youth group i told the the two men that were leading it and they they actually identified and they said oh we actually speak in tongues too like they surprised me they were like oh we did and we they also did deliverance on the side too which was a whole another thing that i didn't realize but it was just time to move on i was already a senior in high school i was a senior in high school i just graduated i can't remember so it was like it was time for me to move on anyway but i talked to them about that experience and they were very open-handed with it but it also for me was like this isn't enough catholic you know catholic youth group isn't enough uh my denomination church god isn't enough it felt limited so yeah i found it extremely helpful i would say it lit the fire for practically everything i did ever since and i don't regret that [Music] i think i was on my bed i was probably eight or something maybe younger yeah in our theology there was like the salvation experience and then the infilling with the holy spirit was like another like a baptism and it was a part it was separate than a water baptism it's like a an infilling i suppose of the spirit is while they said it i mean my dad used to put on the timer and we'd all have to pray in tongues for 15 minutes wait what tell us i remember the time there was this timer on the stove it was an analog timer 15 minutes all right guys praying tongues do you remember the purpose of that build up our spirit man yeah but obviously it's a fascinating phrase um i think that was probably more for my my brother and i i don't think the younger siblings i think my dad had changed quite a bit from his charismatic preacher guy by the time my younger sibling so i don't know that they ever had the timer on the tongues but uh yeah i mean it was just part of our world everybody you get into a circle at the prayer meeting or we used to like walk around the sanctuary i remember and like after just hours just pray in tongues you just walk you just do that walk spraying tongues around it um or yeah you get in a circle and everybody's just that's the go-to it's like we're getting ready you know you just start going that gets everybody fired up so start moving and then um i guess the most interesting spiritual experience that i can remember with tongues personally was when i was actually in my 20s we had started this church in denver colorado i was getting ready for the for the night feeling just i don't know i was feeling blase so i want a really long walk and just was speaking in tongues the whole time and it turned in it like it was like this flip switched the feeling was it wasn't me talking but that's what the experience was it was flowing out of me that i wasn't doing anything and then at the end of it this was the weird part because i've had that i had that experience before it just felt like i mean that's kind of the feeling of tongues usually it's like it's just this thing flowing out it's like water out of your belly she'll flow rivers out of the belly yeah hey you know uh but this particular time was like i stopped and then english came flooding out like that as as though i could understand how you would say like that was the interpretation it was just coming i wasn't thinking i wasn't trying to communicate anything but all it felt to me like what i had just prayed was now being prayed in english and it was very lucid and clear and quick and i wasn't following the thought just was happening i was just like watching it what do you notice when you think about that memory what do you feel right now thinking about it i feel nothing [Laughter] sorry i wish i had something for you does it does it feel like a funny joke does it seem like a long time ago does it um are you feeling kind of nostalgic does it seem confusing yeah no i don't i'm sorry i don't have much feeling attached to it i think it's interesting i guess i think it was an interesting and unique experience in my life i want to tell you about the time i heard you speak in tongues it was at an acquire the fire oh yes two thousand and the little three are you kidding me on the stage yeah no in flint michigan i spoke in tongues i promised to god i was there we didn't know each other at the time i was interning for a choir of the fire because i wouldn't do that usually because i because i knew that like that's not acceptable for most circles to do that without i think you were you like pulled away from the mic a little bit and i heard it but it was i it was there and there was like the spontaneous thing you did to singing michael gunger you used to be a spontaneous prophetic worship leader and you were like leaned into these moments and like led yeah i watched you lead a stadium in some almost charismatic stuff it was a little shocking to me because you know quite the fire didn't have that stuff so but you were one i remember you stood out that's actually how you stood out to me because i thought this guy is actually doing something different than any other person that leads worship on the stage was you were you know just this passionate worship leader who was you know singing away you know like singing worship music back in 2003 i remember it distinctly that's wonderful [Music] what about you hillary yeah i grew up in a baptist church and i remember feeling like i had these urging this these longings on the inside about knowing god more and experiencing god more and i've always been really interested in the experience of god not just the intellectualization of the construct of god but the felton lived experience and i started going with a friend of mine to her charismatic church and my parents weren't really into it because there was no interpretation of tongues that was happening and there was no you know focus on the word people could just talk about whatever they wanted to talk about from the pulpit and that was not something that um was safe and so my parents really didn't want me to be going to that church but i remember feeling like i the way that tongues had been described to me and the way that i'd seen it it seemed so mysterious and romantic almost like this dimension of spirituality which would help me see behind a veil or experience something and i think i just wanted more more of what it felt like to access this fullness or vastness or depth or intimacy whatever whatever it was so i was at a friend of mine's house and her and her mom prayed for me and i started speaking in tongues and they prayed specifically for me to receive tongues how old were you 15 15. yeah i was about 15. and i i've had a few interesting experiences with tongues since that where some people had the interpretation of it and some people have been uncomfortable with it but the way that it was described to me was that it was language is a construct is created by mankind and it limits our experience of our spirituality when we try and funnel experience through language so tongues allows us to bypass the centers of our brain that restrict and funnel experience and allows us to use a heart language that accesses the most core version of our self our most core self to experience and commune directly with god so it never felt like a performance it almost felt like a way to get to get outside of stuckness it for me didn't necessarily feel energizing it felt like an opening of something and simultaneously a centering in a way an opening and a centering and so for me it was always really positive and something that i felt like i would mostly do on my own as a way of again expanding my experience of god in that moment yeah wait so do you suppose still speak in tongues yeah sometimes yeah and you sometimes yes sometimes i've got to be one of the few people that spoke in tongues occasionally while i was an atheist that's amazing that's probably probably a rarity in the world i would imagine i think so i was like i mean see what happens with this so i still got this what's going on does it still work like what am i going to feel if i do this and what's you know i think i stopped when mike you told me that the amygdala gets activated with tongues and i was like do i want to be activating my makeup that's that's when i stopped too actually now that i think about it the amygdala is not bad or exclusively associated with anger it's just i know i know but i just that's what i'm just telling you what happened i think that's what happened to me too actually oh i feel terrible oh i'm sorry we should pray for you the amygdala is associated uh yes with fear and anger response but also with other feelings with intensity it's a it's an emotional intensifier it's the most powerful emotional intensifier in the brain which makes sense of all the things we've been saying i've been writing it down as you as you've in language described what uh neuroscientists see when they brain image people who are speaking in tongues and when you look at any form of prayer meditation the commonalities across cultures and language are shocking except for tongues which are very different than other forms of prayer meditation in the brain for example every form of prayer meditation we've ever studied involves a heightened level of activation in the prefrontal cortex whereas tongues evolves involves almost the complete opposite a lowering of activation of the prefrontal cortex but still the same characteristic activation of the anterior cingulate cortex you find in normal meditation anterior single cortex often associated with compassion and empathy in many studies you see a decrease in activity in the parietal lobe which is your sense of among other things physical place and proximity you do see that heightened state of activity in the amygdala now it's when you're having a fear or anger response you're not going to see elevated amygdala activity in conjunction with elevated anterior cingulate activity the other thing you find is yes your left temporal lobe your language center is activated during tongues but not in conjunction with your prefrontal cortex as it is literally every other time you use your vocal apparatus except when you scream or laugh those are two vocal events that don't involve prefrontal activation when we imagine or when we understand also that when we ask people uh what their beliefs about god are or or who god is we find that the brain activates more like it does in conjunction with feelings and experience than it does with nouns or ideas it makes a lot of sense that tongues could be described as a shortcut to god a faster way to them all or as a deeper experience because when you speak in tongues the lack of prefrontal activation means you it seems remarkable like something else is speaking through you and it also is it's an easier path to a god experience because it's primarily experiential and um when we've studied mystics and they have brain image mystics of multiple traditions the thing mystics all share in common is a reticence to describe spiritual experiences in language because doing so modifies the experience we can speak tongues all day without assigning meaning to what's happened and therefore modifying the experience or your recollection of it and so in that way tongues is almost like a mystical experience you can repeat with training with the only caveat that it's probably almost always going to stay on the ecstatic slash euphoric end of the spirituality spectrum you're not going to have necessarily like a contemplative tongues experience yeah no i i was never really interested in tongues as a baptist i was utterly disinterested in tongues as an atheist but when i started studying the the neuroscience behind spirituality it's actually kind of become the thing i'm most fascinated in because it is so different from every other type of spiritual practice i've ever seen pass through a brain scanner have they looked in the brain scanner with people doing transcendental meditation or anything like that they have transcendental meditation and loving-kindness meditation are the two most widely brain imaged forms of meditation and that's and tongues is a lot different than it is yes tm includes high levels of prefrontal activation like every other form of meditation what about like singing just like with non-words like humming and i don't know that i've seen a brain imaging studying about singing on words specifically i wonder if they would ever do singing in tongues because it does connotate a different feeling than just speaking or praying in tongues it's normal at so many different points in our life to feel like something is getting in the way of being present or happy something stopping us from achieving the goals that we have for ourselves or feeling connected to the people that we love betterhelp will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist to help you work on all those things you can connect with someone in a safe and private online environment for that reason it's so convenient you don't even have to leave the house and you can start working with someone in under 24 hours when working with someone through better help you can send a message to your counselor at any time and get a timely and thoughtful response plus you can schedule weekly video and phone sessions better help has licensed professional counselors who are specialized in treating things like depression anxiety navigating family conflicts and so much more they're committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they make it easy and free to change counselors if needed anything you share with your counselor is confidential so many people have been using better help that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states start living a happier life today as a listener you get 10 off your first month by visiting betterhelp.com liturgists join over 1 million people taking care of their mental health again it's betterhelp h-e-l-p-com liturgists i mean i could i've i've never spoken tongues when you start talking about automatic speech like when you said it felt like interpretation i haven't many times felt like god was speaking through me in language and tanya lerman's work led to a theory that both that kind of automatic prayer speech and hearing god in your thoughts has to do with a set of practices that train you to experience part of your prop mental processes from coming from outside your consciousness and it's specifically rated she theorizes to some of the hardware in your brain that's responsible for figuring out if you're asleep or not or whether you're imagining something or not and so you basically take an imaginative process and re-label it as part of physical reality and so that could be a play there but still i can't it's one thing for me to like when i was a baptist to lay my hands on someone to begin to pray and just whatever god led to say let that come out but then to do that in non-linguistic verbalizations let's just pray lay hands with them right now then everyone starts speaking in tongues like over someone and then prophecy flows and it was always the the precursor to everything tongues was you know it's it's the it's how you get into god's presence it's how you like heal the sick it's how you like prophesy it sounds so much more collective and cultural than my experience of tongues which was actually it feels when i think about it compared to your experience feels more private that i didn't feel like that was imposed on me or something that we had to do in a community that feels god's presence and and i'm feeling right now thankful of that in that way because it feels like it can be this thing that i access and dip into yeah when i want to but there's no doesn't feel like there's a lot of baggage around it yeah it's a weird pool to be thrown into it is somebody else to throw you into it yeah i mean we used to use phrases like warring in the spirit you know like in i used to be part of a ministry that did uh you know a prayer ministry and it was always like if we're going to pray for israel let's all stir up our spirits and pray in tongues and so a room full of people would just start like singing and speaking in tongues like and like the music would be like minery and like we're warring in the spirit for the prophetic destiny of israel you know or we're praying for this person's shofar roland yeah shafarz would be a part of it dancers or like that you got to help for those of us who've never heard so far before it's an ancient bone it's a horn you call it the ancient bone that's what i had this guy that he he made uh he was preaching and he's like you know sometimes you just get he was talking about so far he's like just got to get your lips around that ancient bone oh man i bet he did want people to put their lips around [Music] do you think of the rest of the spiritual gifts differently than you think about tongues what are they no well the night gifts what are they like you mean anthropologically and taxonomically no of course not preaching teaching no no no no no no no that's different are you cause there's the nine gifts of the holy spirit okay and those are prophecy word of knowledge word of wisdom go on healing interpretation of tongues tongues six uh i can't help with any i usually categorize them and i'm i'm forgetting the categories that that always helped me here miracles gift of miracles yep that's seven it's in it's in first corinthians hospitality no that's not it's not in the gifts i'm literally gonna google this there's like two lists of gifts or something because the hospitality was one of them right that's that's the mainstream one and then we've got a top secret list oh no this isn't top secret y'all this is like the mainstream was like teaching preaching yeah okay fatality gifts of apostle i remember that one that one's in the baptist church yeah that's it that's the ones those denominations okay uh so the other two the last ones i missed was the gift of faith and discerning of spirits oh yeah yeah i just got the i just got the chills for a second discerning of spirits yeah distinguishing between sometimes i woke up my purple yeah um discerning so there's different some people think you only get one gift you know and some of the like more traditional pentecostals believe that everyone gets like one gift i think charismatic or third waivers uh that came about in the 80s and the 90s with like the vineyard movement waivers yeah that was a that was a a wave of like after the charismatic renewal it was about the charismatic renewal was in the 60s and 70s the 1960s yeah the 1960s and 70s that's when the charizard met it's funny to talk about like the ancient roots of this being in the 1960s 1960s uh then you know you had the jesus people movement in the 70s as well which is kind of a little bit part of that um but the third wave was like 80s and 90s which is kind of like the vineyard movement uh and there were other different streams of that but so i would say the third wave movement more taught which is a lot of what you're seeing right now is actually third wave in terms of the charismatic megachurch phenomenon they believed that you can teach prophecy where other traditional pentecostals believe prophecy like tongues was only utterance you had to be moved by the spirit in order to prophesy where like kind of later charismatics and third wavers believed no we can teach you how to prophesy how to hear the voice of god and you can ask god for a prophetic word so those that was a different framing but all those gifts so the way that the late charismatic third waivers would frame those gifts are that you can move in and out of all nine gifts like it sounds like third waivers they're the first wave is the charismatic renewal no the first wave would be azusa and the pentecostal movement the second wave would be the charismatic renewal what was azusa azuza in 1904 what happened before then so that's when the gift of speaking in tongues so up until the 1900s the belief is that the gift of speaking in tongues was not active in the church up until the azusa street revival which happened here in l.a holy shit yeah uh that and that's when so william seymour was you know a black pastor who i mean granted this is 1904 1906 right he he led this like meeting where they would uh people would come together and the presence of god would i guess be so strong that people would just be on their faces crying and weeping and repenting and william seymour was a black pastor who was led the whole thing but he would put a box over a bag or a box over his head because he didn't consider himself worthy of being like in the presence of god and like it was this the the pentecostal movement that we know of pentecostalism came the roots of it is a zuza and so i mean you talked to a bishop carl and pearson right he would talk about azusa like he used to hold azusa meetings which were all like just this honoring of this history of pentecostal and the whole speaking in tongues phenomenon came from the the welsh revival prior to that in britain uh the welsh revival impacted the azusa revival and then that's when pentecostalism speaking in tongues hit america wow prior to that there was no i mean we were puritanical and i i believe that's the right phrase uh so yeah so then the first wave was pentecostalism but it was until the 60s that that wasn't that was taken to the next level with the charismatic renewal and there's other moves there was the the the faith healing movement the 40s and 50s with like the tent revival movement that we saw and faith healing oral roberts and like john dowie and there's like a whole like american revival history you know starting with the second great awakening up until now and i think modern charismatic she talked to them and what they're waiting for is the third great awakening where america returns back to god just in the same way the second great awakening ushered in like a moral repentance movement to america sorry that's like such a weird brief history lesson but what about what did hufflepuff ever win the cup though that's still yet to be seen who see who grabs so this is funny to me maybe it'll only be funny to me but you had nine gifts of the spirit right and then i remember i think it was either seven or thirteen when i was a baptist so i was just googling spiritual gifts to make sure we got them and i was like oh the the methodists i'm currently a methodist i'll check their list the methodist is just the list of every denomination's different spiritual gifts they're just like everybody's right yeah this is the via media so they have a list of 20 gathered from three points in the bible romans 12 ephesians 4 and 1st corinthians 12 through 13. yep and so the methodist there's a lot to memorize are there is is the spiritual gifts from ephesians 4 are they referencing apostles of prophets evangelists pastors teachers are they referencing the later gifts that are mentioned in there you real desire theologically you're asked you're asking me y'all i went to bible school so yeah yeah i never finished bible school by the way i always dropped out or just quit but i definitely i mean i was schooled in this stuff like this was this is this used to be my bread and butter like my fundamentals so do you think you're in my lane right now just so you know the way he talks about it i love it hillary and mike talk about neural sciences do you think differently about tongues than you do about the other spiritual gifts whatever whatever you want to include into that list so you eloquently stated earlier right it's all languaging you know you're talking about how language is a metaphor and it's or both of you were talking about that how it constricts and you know so when i think of past experiences with those phenomenons i'll call them i think they're real phenomenons often sometimes they're fake yeah sure sometimes people are faking or just emotional or yeah that happens in anything though uh but i do think there's different ways of viewing those gifts i think there are different ways of viewing prophecy now i actually was blown away by uh was it carl young you know talked about collective consciousness and that maybe what's happening in these prophetic streams so to speak are people that are are you know we talked about mirror neurons and and and the i'm forgetting the words insular the didactic whatever what we're talking about you talked about yes see i knew it i couldn't articulate it you're with me i'm with you i was doing hand motions too that you all didn't see yes uh you know the lost diadem of uh ravenclaw yeah absolutely and i'm glad harry found that in the definition well that was part of like a worship song oh the diadems that's the scripture from isaiah isaiah 56 maybe actually uh yeah but but anyway like i i see so using that you know that language of going oh maybe this and i told you the other night in the hot tub i said that's interesting because i feel like this is what happens in charismatic or supernatural ministry is you know people get what they call word of knowledge like somebody would say uh you live in this type of house your house is this color or you live on the street or um your mother told you this at 13 years old and someone would give you an a word of knowledge like something that they would have otherwise not known by the spirit well how do you do that if you're not faking right and if it's authentic you're praying and you get some information or something comes to you why is that coming to you how does that happen i see it less as a endorsement of this fundamentalist belief system and more as a collective human phenomenon that i think can happen even apart from christianity and i think we've seen we see it happen like there are people that operate in all sorts of unique things phenomenons that aren't explainable to me that i think there is a spiritual component that's happening so when i look at all those gifts i don't devalue them i just think they aren't solely an indicator of this one belief system as like you know a lot of people use healing for instance oh we prayed for this person and the doctor report came back and they don't have cancer anymore they think well that means there's a literal heaven hell that there's a god somewhere sitting on a literal throne that's you know the foundation of their justice and mercy and he's somewhere else and we worship and pray to him like i don't think that i not i think that's a metaphor um maybe of a reality that's working in the universe i guess in that way that makes me a heretic but it's kind of interesting that we put hospitality and prophecy in the same categories yeah yeah put up you put out a tray of muffins or hold on let's be clear let's be real clear if i'm going to spend time with somebody i get to choose between the gift of hospitality and the gift of prophecy go home profit i want some muffins who's going to make me feel including the body of christ the person to make sure that there are paper towels in the restroom you said it's interesting that they're the same yeah that we put them in the same category and yet we have very different responses to them emotionally intellectually and we would say hospitality yeah that can be a gift it's something tangible it's something that maybe we can identify with or have experienced but with other gifts we would say no no and yet our our christian and faith tradition would say they're actually all gifts so i'm just curious about how how we think differently about something that's in the same category well walter brueggemann right he talks a lot about hospitality and the prophetic and he kind of links them together really strongly and he talks about neighborliness and how hospitality is a function of the prophetic to love the neighbor and the foreigner and the stranger and so maybe mike doesn't have to choose he can get prophecy and muffins there we go i just i'm really enjoying how much you know about this shit y'all i'm telling you just rattle off these gifts it's great yeah but hold on how many could you and i get together i thought i thought i remembered hospitality but that was the wrong list these these texts were core tenets like they weren't even just you know random passages they were you got to know who the fivefold ministry gifts are ephesians for apostle prophet apostles the thumb seriously because it's it's the one that touches all four you know the prophet is the finger that points the evangelist the middle finger is the longest finger which is the evangelist and yeah and the middle finger you know the evangelist the longest for your meaning it reaches out to people um and then uh i forgot why the the fourth one is the prophet and and the last one's teacher but uh i mean that would be literal diagrams that they would teach in these circles like this is the fifo and then you identified who was in that where your spiritual giftings lied in within the fivefold ministry gift and then you you know we are together collectively god's hands and body and the earth [Music] so i tweeted something about tongues i tweeted i tweeted like a poll about tongues do you speak in tongues pretty low percentage of my audience but still speaks in tongues but several people responded with crazy stories like somebody like well i don't really believe in it but i was at a thing where somebody that i knew started speaking this language cantonese or whatever like and somebody confirmed that that was this language yeah i've heard those stories my entire life yeah several people responded to my twitter with that and you said that you've seen this directly yeah i'd had an experience of that where i was at a prayer meeting once and had spoken in tongues and someone it was a bunch of people who were coming for a guy who was traveling and speaking and so these were people that i didn't know but were in the vancouver area and i spoke in tongues just kind of under my breath and someone came up to me after and said where did you learn to speak hebrew and i said i don't she said oh that's really interesting because i'm studying hebrew and i understood everything you said what did you say what did you say what did she tell you or he's tell you what oh i was 17. it's been a long time i just remember being like what i wasn't really interested in hearing anything else i was like that's crazy wow yeah so i have a i have a black rubber bracelet and it says w-w-r-d-s what would richard dawkins say and we're richard dawkins and natural is searching for a likely explanation of such a thing he might say what's more likely you supernaturally spoke a language you don't know or the other person projected meaning on the situation by saying they heard you speaking hebrew i think what stands out to me most about that is how how miraculous things can happen and we don't understand them and we can have wonder about them and i love sitting in a place of wonder mm-hmm and it's not you're saying don't piss on this science mic no i'm saying that like it doesn't matter to me what stories we come up with to make sense of it or to not make sense of it either way it felt awakening in some way to have something that was bigger than myself occur and also felt connective to how this experience where i felt like i shared something with somebody but i didn't even try to and it happened outside of my intention jackie pollinger has received multiple languages the gift of tongues in multiple languages and currently lives in mainland china i think doing ministry and received multiple dialects of asian languages so she can just speak yep without any study this is from books i've read and stories i don't have evidence of it i've never met her and i could neither confirm or deny that it happened if she did speak because i don't speak cantonese or mandarin or anything but she lives and works in china with people who don't speak english i mean these are the stories y'all lots of people live and work in china where people don't speak english and speaking a complex and ancient language with no training there you go now that's an exceptional claim yeah it's really important to distinguish like it's one thing it's like well i spent the entire flight on duolingo and when i got there i was able to ask for a glass of water okay fair i'm with you i got off the plane i was fluent in mandarin chinese wait what yeah if that's true we should put a hundred million dollars into a research grant and we gotta crack this nut today i just i just need to clarify this conversation as we move forward just to be the i'm gonna be the hillary and the mic here um there's a difference between the gift of tongues and praying in the spirit at least the way it's taught meaning that people believe everyone can pray in the spirit but not everyone has the gift of tongues how would you differentiate them the gifts of tongues would be like i'm speaking another language like those that phenomenon uh versus like paul talked about language yeah or paul said though i speak with the tongues of men and angels right or the notion of praying in the spirit really yeah like there's there's a like yeah there's a difference there's a language of angels covering a spiritual practice of spiritual practices are either like divinely inspired or the most brilliant hucksters in humanity maybe it's both but those angels like robo means like fly or something that's like there i don't know if there's one language of angels but uh but the notion that praying with your spirit and your spirit man doesn't connotate an actual already existing language i don't know if there's one language of angels i don't i i'm i'm following it says groanings right that the spirit you know speaks and groans it can't be uttered those scriptures are the ones that are like the the proof texts that are being used for the distinguishing of the gift of tongues and the phenomenon [Music] so those of you that have listened to this show for a while you know that we don't really do normal ads on on our show we like keeping it as clean as possible but occasionally we do want to let you know about the people that actually do make this podcast happen because it does take a lot of work and human hours um to produce this work and that's thanks to our patrons my favorite people yeah they're amazing so when you're a patron what are all the stuff they get they get like a meditation yeah weekly meditation they get a second podcast that mike and i do patron only events patreon events they've got episode discussion threads are like my favorite thing yeah i'm so glad we've started those that's like where the really in-depth conversation about these podcasts happen my favorite conversations that happen compared to like social media stuff because these are all people that kind of uh get it and they're invested and that doesn't mean it's monoculture it's a there's a lot of pushback a lot of different viewpoints with us with each other but somehow always gracious and redemptive in those discussions and honestly i haven't really been doing a lot of social media recently but i've been replacing that time in my life on our patreon forum so if you'd like to be a part of that go to thelitus.com and click the join us button you can learn all about the liturgists on patreon and how you can be a part of that we love you patrons i guess right now i think about it like it's a mantra something to occupy my mouth so i can i don't know something it's something i was 18 when i first spoke in tongues i truly believed it was a real gift from god but i didn't use it that much usually just when i felt a prayer needed an extra boost or something i was surprised at how normal it was i didn't fall over or go into a trance or anything weird like that i could start it and stop whenever i wanted and still could if i chose to speak it ever i do remember though there's just kind of this shame around you know what's wrong with me that everyone around me i know has kind of received this gift and i haven't there must be i must be doing something wrong i must be living in sin or god must you know be looking down upon me in disapproval in some way what am i doing wrong am i not holy enough to receive this gift am i even a real christian you know i've devoted the majority of my life to christ and christian service but i do not speak in tongues so does that mean i'm lesser than i am less spiritual i am somehow unworthy intellectually i know that's not true but what i feel is very different i feel lesser than amongst my peers okay so i have another weird experience that happened i was in thailand and i was on the streets of bangkok and i remember walking down the street and there was an a man and i remember feeling weird about seeing him and i felt weird in my body looking him at him and he was looking at me and his eyes weren't really blinking and from probably a block away he was walking straight towards me [Music] so had made eye contact with me and was walking straight towards me and i remember as soon as i saw him i felt really unsettled and unsafe and he came up to me and started speaking in what sounded like a demonic tongue yeah there's difference too there's demonic tongues and then he told me my mom's name and my mom's birthday oh and her birthplace and i like in english yeah in english and then i ran away from him i was so scared he walked up to you you've never seen this man nope never like man he was caucasian in on the streets of bangkok but it freaked the f out of me he said your mother's name is such and such her birth date is such and such and she was born such and such place which is the tiniest little town in prairie alberta and that most people don't even know how to pronounce what do you all say about that huh that's a weird ass experience yeah it freaked me out you mean what if i look at my black bracelet you're saying what would richard dawkins say yes what would richard dawkins say stalker chose that moment to confront i don't know that how do you know like that type of that one's tough [Laughter] unless he's it's the collective consciousness theory you know like maybe he's he's richard dawkins wouldn't be into that no no no no no that's off the dawkins map the thing that you like him i don't the thing that felt interesting for me is that i had like a visceral experience of fear gosh and i traveled all over southeast asia on my own and slept on the streets of manila and bangkok at times if i couldn't find a place like i was not i would be aware of when i was doing something that was unsafe but it felt like it shook me just the way he was looking at me there was something that felt otherworldly about it and that was even before he started speaking in this really dark tongue and then saying things about my family but i you never saw this guy again never i've never seen him before even for a stalker that's a weird thing to say yeah it's a weird thing to find out and then what they say and then disappear for the rest of his life right super super weird watch this i'm gonna fly i'm gonna find out her mother's birthday and birthplace i'm gonna have to hire a private investigator i'm gonna find out her mother's first place at her birthday i'm going to fly to thailand i'm going to walk up to her on the street freak her out and then we'll never see him and i'm going to make weird sounds yeah make weird sounds that make no sense did he did he turn into like a cat or something no because you know those are there's tons of stories about that in a third world like anamorphism yeah i had it listen no i'm hanging pretty good on this episode and i'm trying to honor people's lived experiences okay but if we get into people turn into animals i will not be able to chain the inner skeptic that's fine i don't i don't care i'm bringing it up cause i'm just telling you this is what people talk about like i've heard so many stories my inner skeptic i mean just my almost entire personality i'm just i'm just bringing it up i don't care what you do with it but that is but that would actually i would hear those same stories and usually this you know they turn into an animal like it's it's some witch warlock or this is we're talking about mythology formation that's what this is i'm talking about people right now that that are telling these stories that like that are saying them there's a document instead of there's a documented set of of of cognitive behaviors that encourage mythological formation totally wherein people hear a story and they're one degree removed the teller is one degree removed from the story the person is captivated and moved when the story is told and so when they retell the story yeah it it strains their their credulity toward themselves so in order to increase their credibility with the next listener who they have a trust relationship with they place themselves one degree from the story that's pretty well documented so like the animism and things like well i was there and i talked to a person who saw this happen it's always i talk to the person i'm thinking of people who've who i know i know one person in the city that i've seen it firsthand like that has seen it there's a guy named david hogan who travels and tells these stories that's not the person i was thinking of this is david hogan that travels and speaks in charismatic churches who's a who's a missionary to the third world that yeah you can google him right now and see his sermons on youtube and then but he's not the only one like there's tons of people that are telling these experience first hand and i'm not saying they're true i'm just saying it's happening and it's real people believe it when a category of stories comes from a particular faith tradition is it more likely this faith tradition has uniquely uncovered a behavior of the universe or that their culture encourages certain narratives and there's an incentive structure so what what fascinates me about hillary's story specifically is it's hillary a person who knows enough science to off the top of her head like draft a credible way to create a study that could get a grant and peer-reviewed who then describes something with like a high degree of fidelity and confidence yes that's true um how old were you i would have been i just turned 20. and you weren't drunk no i've nope not at all you were it wasn't a dream nope what did you do afterwards i'm saying i'm still deeply skeptical but at least that's fine and then where'd you go i just ran away and i was like and that was it back probably back to my hostel or something like that and i was like for a few months it might be male privilege but i probably would have put up my iphone started recording and like tell me more [Laughter] and what's your name demon or person either what any piece of identifying information i can get legion well so okay so what do you do with that then like the you know demonic possession particularly in the third world that's something that people see i've seen some stuff what have you seen no i'm just saying i'm saying i have been in i've been in deliverance sessions where i have seen people um unless they're incredible actors talk in ways that utterly shocked and surprised me like like females talking like dudes like that's weird i've seen it but i don't know i don't claim to know that that is a you know a mythical demon that was a fallen angel i don't i don't think it's that but i don't know what it is okay tongues experts we can do to keep talking about uh demons how does one discern from a nonsensical pattern of speech what is angelic and what is demonic hmm well that you take you have to have the gift of discerning of spirits lacking any clear diagnosable nomenclature this is folk religion right here they don't need to be it's it's perfectly self-referentially exactly medically sealed yeah that is i have felt in my body really intense things that differ when i'm hearing dark or demonic tongues versus if you heard this more than once twice yeah what was the second time i was involved in a you call it i guess a ministry on the downtown east side of vancouver where the the highest population of um addiction and poverty in basically north america and overdose death and was distributing food and resources to people and regularly we would hear stories of people who were going to come attack us but then someone else who we'd made friends with on the street would talk them out of it and because they knew the person or whatever they would they wouldn't attack us and so the real of these threats about not being knifed and whatever so there's some presence of danger and sometimes we would run into some interesting characters walking around in the alleys and stuff the downtown east side of vancouver but someone came up to us walking normally and then eyes rolled back and shaking body and growly nonsensical language that had this visceral grip on all of us who were standing there and then someone in the group spoke in tongues and then he spoke back in language in english i should say i can't remember what he said he said something back like don't don't say my name don't say my name in in the tongues of angels or something like that i told you and then i'm being decisions i'm literally being facetious keep going so he came up to us was walking normally eyes roll back shaking demonic tongues someone speaks back to him he gets really angry and resistant and starts speaking english but isn't referencing all of this spiritual discourse naming things that we hadn't said none of us had spoken to him and then he kind of shook out of it and then ran around the corner and ran away it makes me think of that scripture right where paul is uh he's preaching and then a slave girl comes and you know starts speaking this is the truth listen to this guy but he discerned that she had a demonic spirit and he cast it out of her even though she was saying truthful things she's saying that's what i would start laughing too now so let me tell you though we're telling stories about the hogwarts that's amazing i love storyline no but seriously i went to school at hogwarts maybe maybe not like i was there i studied albus dumbledore for those of you beloved friends of ours in the audience who have written in saying that skepticism is over represented on the podcast and you wish we had people who represented an embodied or genuine spirituality on the program you're welcome you're welcome let me tell you that let me tell you finish your story because they are interrupting the spirit of god i'm sorry i'm sorry to laugh so i have to say that that's a joke because i've never felt that cute this ever happened it was funny though thank you so all i can say though is that there are these multiple experiences i've had where people are speaking languages that i don't understand and one group gives me an intense feeling of distress and fear and a freeze response in my body and the other one creates a sense of openness and ease and curiosity still don't know what's being said and maybe a sense of wonder but i don't feel unsafe so i'm not going to explain why any of that happened i'm not even really interested in that all i know is that there are these set of experiences over here that create this response in me interesting and this set of experiences over here that create a different response and some people will put language on those two experiences and say one was a certain kind of language and the other one was another kind of language and that that has meaning and i'm not really interested in that dialogue except to say one felt safe and the other one didn't so would that be the discernment of spirits the gift of the discernment of spirit absolutely i think that can like life i don't think you even have to be a christian i think i think mothers have that type of intuition you know naturally more so i think you know i think that exists uh that gift so to speak or that ability to discern from evil we could get into a whole conversation about intuition as a neurophysiological process the seventh sense if you will it's your brain going through the rolodex of all the experiences you've ever had and matching what's happening in the present moment with the things that it comes up with as being similar to what's happened in the past and make an assessment on what's gonna happen in the future or in the present based on all of that information that's stored categorically and that we access without consciousness and then how we feel that in our viscera and in our organs and kind of on an affective level but it's fast because it's yeah it's non-conscious non-linguistic it's not up in it's not happening way up you know in the neocortex system yeah and it's it's ancient and it's fast i could imagine just like in the tongues that we grew up with you're giving yourself over to god you're giving yourself over to what you feel is the love of god if you're giving yourself that if you could use tongues in a way to give yourself over to other kinds of assumptions or or desires or spirits energies call it spirits call whatever you want but energy you're giving yourself over to part of what you're feeling that's a darker situation you're fighting your conscience you're fighting whatever you're trying to like bypass norms i could see how you could use tongues to get into some very dark places psychologically or vice versa getting into some dark places might emerge might create an emergence of dark tongues yeah um i like i like renee gerard's understanding of the satan so he would argue that demons are not fallen angels from you know that you know the old testament describes or was it i think isaiah you know talk about these beings that fell from heaven um as much as he would describe it as uh inner like spiritual energy that has broken off from us like all of our dark thoughts our violence our war it has a real spiritual energy and presence and it is broken off from us um i think i'm butchering it very bit very badly but it's something that feeds on us because it comes from us not something that is a mythological creature um and that we become the satan every time we enter into the practice the the unconscious practice of scapegoating so when jesus told peter get thee behind me satan he was you're thinking like your father or you're thinking like your father the devil he's telling you know these ancient jews like when you enter into this unconscious process of scapegoating which has a certain process a mechanism to it you you collectively become the satan you you embody that this is what the demonic is that there's a is there energy around scapegoating in xenophobia you can feel it i would say you could feel it in this presidency you can feel it and and in what's happening there is a spiritual tenor and energy that no matter what you tell me i feel white supremacy i feel the the you know you're saying it but you're also there's a there's a dark energy to build the wall do you have any thoughts about demonic as it relates to psychological realities brain structures or anything sometimes i think about them as being so overlapping that we can't tell the difference and that they're just two different ways of framing the exact same thing yeah yeah yeah and i think you know it's the more i learn about the more i study and work with trauma and people who have dissociative identity disorder what we know is that people leave the present moment and leave their body because it's so unsafe to be present and build a whole new neural network that they can go hang out in that helps them not actually stay in the situation where the abuse is occurring if we think of it from what's called internal family systems therapy sometimes we can develop entire systems within ourselves that have their own neurological networks where one of the parts we sometimes call them are personalities or alters as they're sometimes called is the internalization of the abuser it is the person taking on the behavior and the characteristics of the abuser within themselves and it becomes a part of their own personality and identity obviously as a self-preservation mechanism as a safety mechanism and because of the forming and the developing brain that's shaping how a person then engages with themself and in the world and so sometimes people for a variety of reasons can switch between alters and one of those alters could be an abusive person but abusive to self abusive to others and the switching between parts can be activated based on circumstance or environment or internal switches that get flipped based on felt sense but we could make sense of how somebody is walking down the street and having a totally normal experience and then something triggers neurologically a network that's activated with an internalized abuser and they start using really violent words and their body starts convulsing we could have what's called like a tonic clonic immobility a tonic immobility where there's a shaking that happens and then something that could happen that switches them back into their their main host if you will the altar or the the primary person wow and we can explain all of that neurologically based on developmental trauma right we can explain that neurologically based on trauma we can explain praying in the spirit neurologically not praying in tongues we got nothing for just walking out speaking unknown languages neurologically and telling somebody their mother's i'm telling someone unknown right that's the stuff that starts to like so violently present against my worldview well my god i go beyond mere skepticism to like a visceral no brother mike brother mike brother mike this is where science ends and the lord begins yeah jesus like hangs out at the fringes of science like trying to figure out little tricks to do [Laughter] i gotta keep you skeptics on your toes and now it's time for deconstruction with vishnu [Music] the big question in today's show is what is this tongue's thing all about is it a brain thing is it a god thing is it nonsense or is it meaningful is it gibberish or is it the poetry of the spirit [Music] so let me ask you this who's asking the question who is it that's speaking these words right now these english words and whom are they being spoken to we take these things for granted right is the is the speaker a person a brain an ego and if so where does this person brain ego come up with these words what are these words but just parroted sounds from the world that i've copied and what is the world but a story that exists in my brain that i've been told a story that i also mimic and mime right back at the source from which it came the out there the other in other words what is all of this but just story and that story is that the universe is an assortment of separate objects and events [Music] that i the speaker am some separate object and event than you the listener that my words come from some real agency and real independence so the dichotomy that we ask a question from like is this a brain thing or is this a spiritual thing that's a human dichotomy it's a conflict of story not of reality when i speak in tongues is it god speaking through me or is it me well who exactly do i think that i am am i really separate from the source from which i come the source that holds the atoms in this voice box together am i separate from the oxygen in the lungs that gave me the breath necessary for speaking these words so of course when i speak in tongues it is the spirit groaning is it ever anything else after all dear listener what is ever happening other than god sure the prefrontal cortex likes to tell stories likes to think that it is controlled that there is some sort of me some sort of individual separate me that decides to say these things but these are just happenings so the way i see it now perhaps tongues can be a good lesson in how it simply always already is [Music] hold on i want to be real we did a whole episode on tongues okay where 75 of the hosts have experienced speaking in tongues on three and yet no one has spoken tongues so the curious can't even understand what that might sound yeah we're doing it yeah that's how we're gonna go out all right all right three two one just so you all know i have prayed for brother mike to get the gift of tongues and we're still waiting and believing for that miracle that literally scared the shit out of me yeah uh an energy powerful response from the holy cow you had a whole room doing that it's a thing i was through the headphones i can't do it it's like no oh oh oh this guitar is out of tune it is this got shit got real up in here okay but if we do this long enough you'll speak in tongues here's the problem i'm the person who does what searches for and assigns linguistic meaning to literally everything and so you got you're just like hey here's some sounds you can't assign meaning to them oh cool you're just taking me off my map of the universe suddenly and involuntarily that's why we had you count us in yeah that's that's good i think it made good radiation you should have gave me a safe word i'm out was a pretty good one we hope you've enjoyed this episode on tongues and we'd love to hear what you thought you can let us know at the liturgist.com podcast facebook.com liturgist or at the liturgist on instagram and twitter your hosts have been hilary mcbride william matthews science mike and i'm michael gunger we'd like to thank our patrons for making what we do possible thanks to greg nordin for the production and editing that's corey pig for project management in our next episode we're going to continue diving deeper into some spiritual topics we're actually going to talk about one of my favorite things in the world to talk about mysticism so look forward to that one thanks for listening everybody